Trailer Max. Gulf Islander....

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Jim_Hbar, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. Jim_Hbar
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Jim_Hbar Junior Member

    First, a bit about myself...

    I read the forum lots, perhaps daily, and have been a member for a few years - I post occasionally if the thread is valid, attitudes are not hanging out and I can offer some insight - and this is the first thread I've started. I've read much of Option One, and most of Boston's journey.

    I'm in my mid-fifties, and what I'd call semi-retired. We are in the process of re-locating to the BC Gulf Islands, and will be building a house about 5 km west of where Tad anchors, over the next couple of years..
    I'm a Professional Engineer, mechanical, and have been involved in custom industrial machine design for the past 30 years. Inventing and tinkering are some of my hobbies.
    My shop has three welding machines, lathe, small mill, drill press, and various wood working tools, and a 47' Chev street rod pickup..
    I've built three stitch-n-glue kayaks/canoes in the past, and have owned a couple of power boats over the years.

    I've toured the BC mid-coast from Vancouver to Douglas Channel, and intend to spend more time out there in the coming years.

    Once established in the Islands, I intend to build a boat.
    And I will likely purchase one initially, so we can enjoy the local waters and reacquaint ourselves with boating.
    Don't bother making the comment "buy a used boat" - that's not what this thread is about.. And I will be doing that..

    I've searched the web, and read many threads on this and other forums over the past 5 years. There will always be designs that one is not aware of, so feel free to mention them.

    Rigid requirements:

    1) The boat must be "haul-able" without a pilot car on the roads and highways of British Columbia. This means that the absolute maximum beam is 3.2m or 126"..
    2) The maximum gross weight of the boat/trailer combination is 4600 kg (10,140 lb). This is the maximum that one can trailer with a standard drivers license in BC. To haul heavier trailers requires additional training and endorsements. The tow vehicle is rated for 10,600 lbs. Trailers designed for 8500 lb boats weigh about 2000lbs.. Let's say the maximum loaded boat can weigh 8000 lbs.
    3) Fuel efficient cruising in the 15 to 20 knot range..
    4) Enclosed heated cabin.
    5) Head with shower.


    Strong preferences:

    1) One, Six cylinder diesel inboard, non-electronic. Yanmar 6LP perhaps.
    2) Metal hull(s)
    3) So-called "Downeast" and/or Classic styling.
    4) Reasonable cockpit size.
    5) Reasonable side decks for bow access.
    6) No huge engine box at the rear of the cockpit.


    Usage:

    1) Day cruising and weekending in the BC Gulf Islands and San Juans
    2) Fishing the above waters and further afield.
    3) Annual trips north, for two weeks to a month, accompanying larger boats.
    4) One week fishing trips with two others, to the west coast of Van. Isle., self contained.


    Dislikes

    1) Stern drives.
    2) Gasoline.
    3) The Westcoast aluminum boat look.


    Some Current and Past designs of interest

    1) Tad's Stahl 29 is interesting, but the current design is outboard powered. It might be overweight with a diesel. His Berry Point 26' is a bit small..
    2) Tom's larger Bluejacket's are interesting, but could be wider for my application. The potential efficiency is appealing.
    3) Devlin's Black Crown 30 would work, but is getting heavy, and has a stern-drive.
    4) The Cape Dory 28 was the closest commercially made boat I've found that suits - but they are getting old now, and have known deck core de-lamination issues. For those not familiar, a Yachtworld example.
    I will be shopping for one when it's time to buy something.
    5) The Shamrock 270 Mackinaw would work with 6" more beam, and a two to three foot longer cabin. As is, it lacks interior space for the longer missions.
    6) Commander 26's lack in the styling department, and have stern drives. Cockpit sole is rather high.
    7) Norstar 30's - too wide, too heavy, too many engines. But otherwise, about right. Styling is a bit off.
    8) Seasport, Osprey, and others all have models that miss the mark for me in one way or another..
    9)Many Northeast builders have models that appeal, but are a little too wide and or too heavy. For example, the Atlas Acadia 32 nails the look I want, and their 25 is just a bit too small..

    Due to the maximum weight requirement, I suspect that maximum beam will not govern the design, and the length will be around 28 ft.

    To start this off, a few questions:
    1) Is there any merit to sticking with diesel, with it's packaging and weight challenge, or should one just use a 4-stroke outboard? Personally, I find outboards to get in the way for fishing, but 99% of sport fishing boats in our area are outboard powered, so it is obviously something that can be dealt with.
    2) Is an aluminum hull with a Epoxy/Wood cabin a viable option? Would there be weight savings? One of the reasons for being "haul-able", is to be able to bring the boat home in the winter, and store under cover..
    3) If not an outboard, what form should the drive take? Power-vent? CPP? Custom inboard DuoProp?


    Let's keep this thread professional and non-confrontational.

    Jim
     
  2. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "1) Is there any merit to sticking with diesel, with it's packaging and weight challenge, or should one just use a 4-stroke outboard? "

    For the few hundred hours a year this boat might get a diesel , due to cost , weight and esp maint requirements would not be great.

    A 4 stroke outboard would work, but they are heavy and expensive , although with care the boat can be beached.

    We are contemplating a similar boat for trailering and I am at the point where I believe an inboard gas engine would be best choice.

    Engine and parts are light and dirt cheap.Safety is not a concern, there are millions of them.

    The biggest hassle is our Gov mandated gas that self destructs in 30 days or so.

    The solution so far is to have a big tank to use during cruise , that would be run out towards the end of the cruise.
    Then a couple of 6 gal portable tanks would feed for the final miles.

    The small tanks would hold AV gas from the local FBO which contains no destructive Ethanol.

    Before selecting any a diesel I suggest you visit the Mfg site and look for the work required for "out of service for over 30 days".

    The Arcadia http://acadia25.com/ACADIA25/SPECS25.htm might fill the bill in diesel..

    FF
     
  3. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    My build is 10' x 30' and I'm trying every connection I know of to lay my hands on the recent Subaru, boxer 4 cyl. diesel engine. 150 hp and 350 torque @ 1800 rpms. Weight ( seems to be a top secret ) on this aluminum engine and I gather that it is just over 400lbs. That is less then some 100 hp outboards. I feel that this could be the perfect boat engine and with Subaru engineering--it should run forever and is very fuel efficient and small. Yes, I own Subaru cars. PS any help in getting one of these engines will be greatly appreciated................
     
  4. Carteret
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Carteret Senior Member

    The opposed piston design make the boxer a very interesting engine.
     
  5. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    philSweet Senior Member

    I think your weight expectation is off by about 2.5 tons as far as what she will weigh sitting on the trailer after a weekend trip.
     
  6. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    philSweet Senior Member

    You should also read the Option One thread in the Collaboration section of this forum.
     
  7. cthippo
    Joined: Sep 2010
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    cthippo Senior Member

    A couple designs from Cheasepeake Marine Designs...

    The Trailer Trawler 28 is laid out similar to a Nordic Tug design and set up for plywood construction.

    Another option depending on the style you're looking for is the C-Trawler 29 from the same designer. Their study plans are only $5.00 and can be downloaded directly from their site. So far I have found Karl very responsive to information requests and open to different ideas.
     
  8. Jim_Hbar
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Jim_Hbar Junior Member

    Fred:
    The Acadia 25 is a bit on the small side, and I find the initial stability of a wider hull to be very desirable at rest, particularly when the hull is not hard chined. Plus, they are not common in the west. I recall one being listed on Yachtworld, in the NorthWest, in the past three years - and one Sisu 26 in the same time frame. I believe the Cape Dory 28 would be a better fit for us, for a commercially made boat. But the built-down style hulls of those boats would likely not be the most efficient at the planing speeds desired, and the boats are too heavy for best efficiency.

    I have a JDM 70 series Landcruiser with the Toyota 1HZ engine, the naturally aspirated 12V version of the 1HD engine that Yanmar uses as the base for their 6LP.. I have a 6 cyl 165 hp HINO in a tracked dumper, a 115 hp Isuzu 4BGT in an excavator, and a 325 hp Cummins 6BT5.9 in the truck... I'd take any of those engines over a similar hp gasoline engine anyday. But they are tough to acceptably package in a smaller boat, where the engine won't fit below the cabin sole, and have a 300 to 500 lb weight penalty over similar hp gassers.

    rasorinc:
    I'm holding my breath waiting for the Scooby diesel - We will trade in our '08 Spec. "B" for a Forester or Outback when/if they arrive over here. I ask the dealer about them at every service!
    The flat four (or six) also solves a bunch of packaging issues with vertical in-line engines, particularly inboard in smaller boats. And it is also an inherently balanced engine design, like the inline six. But it had better work, if the design is based around it, because nothing else will fit in the same space, except a gasser subaru.. And it might be under powered for this boat..

    BTW, I've even pondered on converting a JDM EJ engine to diesel. But it's best not to discuss than here. PM if you would like to discuss further..
    If you find a source for the European diesel engines, I'm interested in at least two... Once converted to mechanical injection, they would be ideal in a boat.

    philSweet -
    The weight is a rigid requirement, and one of the driving design criteria.. That's why it was listed under "Rigid Requirements"..:D

    I fail to understand how the boat will be 5000 lbs heavier, after the weekend... :confused:
    The weight of the catch will never match the fuel burned. We go after salmon, not whales.

    Re-iterating - the boat must weigh under 8000 lbs loaded and be under 10'-6" wide... No exceptions, no fudge factor, full of fuel.
    That's the basic premise of the thread..

    Provisions and some gear can be shifted from the truck to boat prior to launching.. Normal launch stuff..

    Option One has been read, but it's basic premise is quite different..
    I'm looking for about twice the boat.

    And I quote..
    The group chose to make O-1:

    1 Coastal hopping. 1 week duration without re-supply
    2 Trailerable (Edit: 8'-3" as discussed in thread)
    3 Range 300 miles
    4 Crew, 2 minimum
    5 Price range, under 50K US, for home built.
    6 Must be able to carry on a normal conversation at 3/4 throttle.
    7 Outboard power
    8 Locate head up (on same level as saloon as opposed to down with berths)
    9 Light weight - about 1500 - 1800kg​

    My criteria:
    1 West Coast, Inside passage with a bit of open exposure, Fishing on the outside. 1 week duration without re-supply
    2 Haul-able with an overwidth permit, but no pilot car in BC - 10'-6" max width!
    3 15 to 20 knot cruise.
    4 Accommodate three for fishing for a week, or two couples for a weekend.
    5 Price range, - TBD, but likely at least double Option One.
    6 Enclosed cabin, head with shower
    7 Diesel inboard or 4 stroke Outboard power
    8 Head is preferred to be at the rear of the cabin, near the cockpit
    9 Weight - 8000 lb (3500 kg) max. with full fuel and gear.
    10 So called "DownEast" or Classic styling.
    11 Cockpit large enough for three for fishing - perhaps 6ft. long minimum.

    In summary, I want something that looks classier than a 28 ft. Kingfisher 2825.
    [​IMG]
    Dry weight 5044 lb, 160 US gal capacity - say 1000 lbs of fuel, 250 HP 4-stroke Yamaha - 562 lbs. We're at 6600 lbs fueled, and thus have 1500 lbs of capacity left for the rest.

    It meets the criteria, but is ugly - I think we can do better.


    cthippo- I'm familiar with the TT28 - I've briefly been on the commercial version, and I visited a scaled up TT28 that was under construction on several occasions.. Neither meet the weight criteria, nor will they meet the speed criteria.. CMD's Puffin 28 is close, but it is not a planing hull, and likely not quite suited for any of the rougher stuff we will need to hit. Plus, it would take too long to get to the fishing holes at dawn. But floor plan wise, it could work..
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  9. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    " any help in getting one of these engines will be greatly appreciated......."

    Google EAA , the home built aircraft folks do use these engines , and have a source from Japan direct for used very low time engines.

    FF.........
     
  10. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    FF--Thanks much. Stan
     
  11. Jim_Hbar
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Jim_Hbar Junior Member

    Fred -
    The Subaru diesels that Stan and I are referring to have only been available in the European market since Mid 2008.
    In 2008, Subaru said North America would have them in the 2010 models.
    But it seems that every year, the expected release date into North America is moved back a year.

    The Subaru engines used in experimental aircraft are gas burners, and the base engines are readily available. Have a look here in Ebay Motors.. If you add "diesel" to the search criteria, there is not a single hit.

    rasorinc -
    One limiting factor of the Subaru design, that needs serious consideration, is the location of the exhaust ports, and thus the exhaust piping and manifolds.. Being on the bottom of the engine, at close to the maximum width, the required clearance to the hull will determine the vertical height of the engine in the boat..
     
  12. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

  13. Jim_Hbar
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Jim_Hbar Junior Member

    Tad:

    Too heavy... And so is this, long term
    These are just a bit small and narrow..
    These are 2" too wide, and way heavy... But perfect otherwise. :D

    This is much much better, but I want it to be 1 1/2 ft. wider, and designed for Aluminum construction. And a diesel if it doesn't kill the weight.

    I want something I can drag up to Port Hardy, or over to Kyuqout or Nootka, once or twice a year, but be comfortable in for weekending and day trips in your backyard.

    BTW, I believe we may have met in the mid 70's, just north of Gibsons..
    I was there working on a university friend's wooden jet boat..
     
  14. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    Sorry about the Option one reference. You did state you had read it. The Kingfisher does indeed look good. But notice that a shore power connection is considered an option. The weight claimed is for a very stripped down machine. Add a head, dinette, galley, shore power with fridge, 20 gal fresh, blackwater tank (all listed options) and that 1500 is pretty much gone. Still, it is really close. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that there was at least one battery on the boat. I'm betting against an anchor, though.

    My comment about the 2.5 tons came more from reading between the lines than any concrete statement. I read a lot into your comments about the examples you listed. And you made mention of your welders. It's very difficult for a home builder to carry the necessary variety of stock to match the weight of a well designed commercial metal boat. I just think the boat you would like weighs about 2.5 tons more than you want it to; and that represents more than just a few compromises here and there.
     

  15. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Jim,

    The first part can be done.....

    The second part.......hummm......something about...."if you remember the 70's you weren't there"........:D
     
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