Traditional Build with Corecell

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by fallguy, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Not sure what you are referring to regarding the deck being built on the mold.

    I would build deck on the table (glass the ceiling the other way) and the mold and tape it into the hull; then if I make the top portion of the female mold removable (need to anyhow); it would actually be real simple to take the mold halfway off, finish the glasswork on the decks and leave peeply on before the liftoff. The beam sockets would be left unfinished at that point-too hard to get lined up. The decks would give the boat even more integrity when flipping. I could leave out the super details like the main hatch opening, too.
     
  2. Beamreach
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    Deck comment was from your post, ignore .
    Looks like this is complicated Dan, RWoods will solve these issues now that you have a general direction for your build....
    Curious ,how much was the rough shipping estimate for you in the mid west US from the UK for a 40' container with two 32' foam/glass hulls for this Skoota32?
     
  3. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The shipping from Cornwall to Baltimore was $4,900 from two separate shippers, but that wasn't all.

    The train ride Baltimore to Minneapolis was going to be $1000 or a bit more? (from the freight company) Fuel surcharges or something they can't estimate.

    Then the freight from the trainyard to the final was $275 per day of use, so if you have the crate an extra day you get charged another day rate of $275. But they won't allow an ocean container to a residence, so I had to take the hulls out of the ocean box and put them on a flatbed semi here to move to my house with the assistance of a freight company which I estimated on the low side at $300. Then, the hulls are inside the crate and need to be hand moved onto a flatbed with a small army and well attached for the mile long trip to my house. Once here, I wasn't even sure how I was going to offload them. I have a few friends with massive tractors with forks, but even still; it was going to be difficult; and especially to avoid damage to them. I might have built a gantry as I will to turn the hulls for the build.

    Moving the hulls around here will be no picnic, but I will at least have considerable time to design a system to do it.

    So, ballpark was $6,500 or a bit more from Cornwall to my door. And to be honest, the fellow that quoted the boat in Cornwall gave me a super, super low price that covered the shipping. If anyone is looking for a boat builder in England or US east cost, pm me. I really like the guy, too. Just didn't work out for reasons not worthy of posting here.
     
  4. Beamreach
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    $7,000 US pretty much pays for 48 sheets 12mm Core Cell M plain =$9k Can + shipping
    Looking forward to following your build .
     
  5. groper
    Joined: Jun 2011
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    groper Senior Member

    Hi fall guy,

    I've just read through this and I'd like to help you.

    Firstly, you seem really against infusion. This is something you really should consider, and if you think it's too complicated or too expensive, I can assure you that it's neither - you just need to approach it from another angle which you haven't discovered yet. We can help with this- several people who have already posted in this thread all very capable people. Without infusion, building a flat panel design takes much more time.

    There is nothing in a developable design which can't be pre made before assembly. All this talk of molds and you don't require any of it!

    The best way to do this as a one off build is to build it right way up! You don't need to flip big hulls either! You also don't need your top sides fitted until late in the build which allows easy access and great ventilation through the open sides! I put my top sides on early because I was building without a shed and I could not keep the weather and sun off it. I had constant trouble with my tarps blowing away etc so I said stuff it and put the deck and top sides on. It was so much easier doing anything before that happened... I wish I had a shed to build in...

    You could also build this in half molds, split down the center line, but you don't have the ease of finishing the interior with hulls complete! You might gain time getting the hulls done, but it will cost you more in the long run finishing the interior and the rest of it. The hulls are a pretty simple and quick part of the build. You have to look well beyond that as the rest of the project will take you far more time than the hull shells. You can build a pair of 40ft catamaran hull shells in a month, yet it takes circa 4 years to finish the boat entirely!

    Things I would do differently-
    1. get a good shed.
    2. Build a perfect full size infusion table or buy pre made panels.
    3. Finish all of the interior before putting the deck on and the top sides ( ready for final paint stage, primed and sanded etc)

    Any questions fire away...
     
  6. Beamreach
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    I'd like a good description or video of infusion methods if I can ask, any best recommended descriptions or videos ...
     
  7. Jim Caldwell
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    Jim Caldwell Senior Member

  8. Beamreach
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    Thanks Jim, that does look like a much better epoxy experience ,as someone who has been sensitized .
    I've never seen epoxy with such a long pot time ,so assume the cost of infusion epoxy is more, favorite infusion epoxy brands for the economy minded?
    I suppose it depends what is available in our areas.
     
  9. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Thanks for the replies.

    I am staying away from infusion. I don't have any desire to do it.

    Much of this depends on Richard Woods. I had originally told him I wanted to build with a male mold until a few here told me the boat would be too floppy without the inside guts done, and honestly I see some big upside to full female mold over the male mold.

    I'm a nit groper, so I don't want to build it without a mold, and Mrs. Fall wants a nice looking boat. The boat is spec'd for female half molds and infusion, so the change to full female mold will only require a bit of effort adding a transom mold I'd say and I'm very handy with wood, so no concern about building any mold. I was encouraged by your timeline, though. I hope to get the two hulls done before next summer so they can be post cured in the summertime (or sooner), and I can line them back up inside the building to do the beamswork.

    I am convinced at this point building for me with a full female mold would be optimal. I can build the entire hull shell and the inside bits first, then add the deck at the end; leaving only the beam sockets unfinished as they require alignment. Flip the boat and glass the bottom.

    I have a heated and air conditioned space for the work. I am working on insulating it now and it will be insulated by the end of April. It is about 36' deep and plenty wide for a single mold, with a 33' melamine flat table next to it.

    I can use vacuum, but at this point wasn't seeing much reason to do so.
     
  10. Beamreach
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    If you have the melamine table sealed for air leaks ,you'd be almost foolish not to Vacuum , =best bond foam to glass ,this was highly recommended to me by Noah.
    Assuming you are using plain foam & epoxy or are you following Woods scrim foam /vinylester
     
  11. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    corecell M and Silvertip epoxy

    I can use some vacuum. I had not really considered it too strongly. Didn't see much benefit for flatwork, but I have never used it at all. I suppose if I did both sides of a panel; I'd have a greater assurance of no air on the reverse side.
     
  12. Beamreach
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    I like what Groper & Jim C and others previously said about infusion, on a huge table you'll love working on this project instead of surviving like I have done in my 32' foam glass Eclipse hulls .It hasn't been fun plus sensitized ,you can have fun ,produce strong work and be successful with infusion ....
    Why learn the hard way like some of us already have?
     
  13. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I will not be using infusion, but I am not against using vacuum for table work at all.

    Consider a few things; first, I'm inexperienced with infusion. The downside risk of infusion is failure to get a full infusion. And if so, then for this build it would be on a full hull, so you'd be failing with hundreds of hours of work and thousands of dollars of core and glass; just not worth it. Using the highest quality epoxy and core will help a lot. I can use raptor staples to help with any glass that won't lie nice.

    I spoke with three boat designers thus far, and all advised against infusion. I spoke with two professional builders and both advised against infusion. Infusion is not going to happen on this build unless on of you guys want to fly up here to donate the work. (in good humor)

    If I use vacuum, do I need to throw away the top plastic bag every time? I have visions of thousands of feet of epoxy laden plastic going in a can.
     
  14. Beamreach
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    I personally have re-used Vac Bag ,We opened up enough of bag to remove part ,generally about 8' long by 3-4' .
    Placed new part in and added glass and resin, re-sealed and on with vac, wasn't easy but seemed to work OK.
    We hot glued a boundary of the part so you could do a second one after adding foam in, wetting out and adding & wetting glass, it wasn't easy. We were afraid of trying infusion, this was more than 3 years ago.
     

  15. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Unless your molds are perfect youll still need to fair and paint. Ive seen the melamine molds RW shows on his website. This will give you a shape, but its not good enough to pull a finished product from- thererfore your justification for getting a shiny hull is irrelevent.

    With infusion- again you neee to open your mind. I would not suggest you straight up attempt a half hull infusion! You would be almost certainly doomed to fail if you tried it. I also wpuld not recommend it in a melamine half mold of any description. You start with small peices on the flat table. Then work your way upto large peices as your learn how it works and what the tricks are. Theres plenty of small peices you will need in this boat. Then i stated making big panels and cutting them up for the smaller bits i needed. Then i realised with infusion i could laminate 20sq meteres of foqm core panel, both sides completed simultaneously with a perfevt finish on one of them, in 4 hours working alone with no mess! Youd be mad to do it any other way...

    Today now ive built a boat like this, i realise i could laminate all the panels in the entire boat on a flat table in 2 days with infusion - with a perfect finish on both sides of all of them- but that is another story...

    Once you have your flat panels, it simply becomes a kit boat.

    For ypur DM version boat- probqbly a differemt approach is warranted. Perhaps use a full half mold and then add the otherside upto the waterline. Then finish the interior before adding the outer topsides to close it?

    Do ypu have plenty of height im your shed? Perhaps complete the hull and leave off the deck till last, build an access platform to get inside although it means alot of climbing in and out, do you have young legs?
     
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