TP52s

Mistral,

I am here to learn and ask questions just as much as the next guy. Thankyou Dutch Peter for the follow up. My only potentially-viewed as-negative comment is that the internal bulkheads are laminatied to the hull rather than glassed into the hull as Catalana and MacGregor Yachts do here in the states. See the April 1st set of photos.

To stem off side-bar debate, I will mention that the Mac26x bulkheads are visable in the storage compartments of the boat. There is a bit of history on this. Before a Catalina 27 is made ocean worthy, (yes Catalina 27) bulkheads are added into the storage compartments of these vessels. That trick has been expanded on by glassing in the structure, which gives the hull more strength and keeps the hull from flexing. The liners, galley compartments and sinks, etc may also be glassed in to provide a more ridged structure. The Catalina 27 is one of the boats listed in Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You anywhere by John Vigor. Several have circumnavigated.

I suspect that the reason Trader's bulkheads are laminated in instead of being made part of the hull is related to vacuum bagging. It would be the same reason stress point reinforcement doesn't appear to be used. That technique is the same as is used on sails. Additional layers of matting are added at the points where it is needed just like additional layers of material are added to sails. Upto 17 additional layers on my boat. The technique is easy in hand layed hulls but expensive in the vacuum bag constructed, so something else is often done to reinforce the hull.

What is Numex? A kind of styrofoam? Not wood I hope.

Well more positive comments for the TP52 Trader. The Transport photos are wonderful. Why not market this feature? TransPortability instead of TranPacificability. To preserve the value of these craft why would you not want to transport them rather than sail them to a buoy race start? You wouldn't use your racing sails to get to a race would you? You would motor and save the good stuff for the race. Your crew does not benefit from cruising to a race under sail because the race will probably be all windward leeward. You might as well save the wear and transport the boat. I really think this was the intention for these craft. Transportability not TransPacificability. Somehow that notion was lost over the years.

The 19 February photos shows the keel "hole". Now this is fascinating because it explains a few things. First, the designer has rejected traditional arguments against centerboarded vessels. Very clearly the notion that the risk of water entering the vessel through a slot on centerline has been deemed no greater than the risk of water entering the vessel by other means. We discussed the Bayliner 180 already. This is progress. Second, if you turned Trader upside down, the bulb weighted keel has potential to retract itself back into the hole. No wonder mathematically derived stability ratios are prefered to a tank test. You could even portray Trader as a centerboarder because of this :idea: I say yea very good.

Now look at the side water tanks (29 April 2004). They are at the place shown by MacGregor Yachts, in the Mac26x, and argued by Practical Sailor for years before the X to be ideal for stability. Fresh water tanks can be emptied during races and they are. I have seen this more than once. They can also be filled with salt water and then desalinated. This is more progress. I say yea again very good.

 

Which only goes to show that the first part is correct - you do not think. THe yard where I work is now building it's 4th TP52. We may not make a LOT of profit, but we do very well, thanks. I have passed your comments re. "failed design" along to the Farr design office - their lawyers are very interested. This is, after all, a public forum in all respects.
HAND,
Steve

 

Do you know that threat of legal action is illegal in most US states? It is a form of terrorism that should not be tolerated.

Steve, what would turn you into a thug? I suspect you are just having a bad day.

The fact is that Farr appears to have dumped mold sets in Spain and is moving to VO70s fast in order to save the farm. The Med fleet likely is now reduced to three. (from 4 and growing to 3 and dwindling.) There is no market for these TP52 boats in the US because there is no market for anything IMS and that has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with the GP RWP and Jim Teeters.

ORCA is as close to fraudulant as you can get. US Sailing's involvement in supporting a market for used TP52s in the US on the west coast is reprehensable. The TP52s do not even pass their own screening test for an ocean worthy vessel. At least they are reorganizing. The future will be better. The east coast may be filled with robot thinkers willing to purchase sailboats that are hardly raceable but not my coast. TP52 owners might as well start thinking PHRF. The saying friends do not let friends sail PHRF is bunko. It would be a thrill to have TP52s in any PHRF fleet. In anycase half of the TP52 fleet was built for the Atlantic. The med boats will be the same.

Peace on Earth

Frank

 

Frank,
If I was going to threaten legal action, I would do so. However, all I have said is that I have mentioned your remarks to friends at Farr. That is similar to mentioning them to my wife (who thinks you are a dork, too, BTW)
As far as being a thug - I think you should check whether you are the pot or the kettle here. Your comments about a class that you have no first-hand knowledge of, and your comments about building, show you to be someone who has little knowledge, yet likes to show off that fact. Any builder worth his salt would laugh like a drain, as the guys here do.

Steve

 

Read Sail! My faith in humanity is restored today. I am relieved to see that the good guys still win every once in a while. The truth is worth more than all the artifice and hype that my opponents can throw.

My marina (SwanTown) is having a little party. I will be there for the noon hour. Folks who've helped me to get to where we are and want a face to face are welcome as my guests. I am the guy with the VO70 hat. That resembles that fellow with the Margarita.

 

Welcome to boatdesign.net AVman.

Many owners of Mac26x vessels are engineers. But not me. My training is in decision theory and systems theory and is mostly applied to medical and government agencies. Reverse engineering is about as engineering as I get.

A honeycomb core material was used in construction of the Mac26x.

We have a new governor in Washington state as of 30 minutes ago. Inauguration ball tickets now have meaning and I need to attend to business as well as holiday maters. I will try to check in Monday or Tuesday of next week. It would be great for those interested to get a copy of the new Sail magazine.

Sail notes in an article on the Vende Globe, that the last IMS race in the US probably has been completed. ORCA founders such as Barry Carrol (a former Farr manufacturer) are now supporting IRC for Grand Prix racing. The only race in the US that has not come around is the one run by another ORCA founder. IRC differs from box rules in that the formula for the rating is closely guarded in an attempt to prevent designers from creating foolish designs.

One of the big problems with box rules is that when the rules change the older vessels are obsoleted. That isn't a problem with PHRF or IRC. The TP52s of course would have to be wanded for IRC. I want to pass on some information I was fed before taking off.

Fleet insurance from Mires and Briggs and companies like it is inexpensive. It covers officers, commitee boats, directors and every race boat from dock to race to dock. I am not endorsing it, only pointing out how economics may have been hindering sailboat racing in the united states. An owners group, such as the TP52 group or any group of sailboaters can now race outside of US Sailing. They still must use the US Sailing Racing Rules, but these rules are International. Many do not know that. IRC is also International and there is no US Top down influence in the rating system.

Take Care
We all be mates, so lets act like mates.

 

not nomex

Quote:
A honeycomb core material was used in construction of the Mac26x.
Unquote

I'm thinking 4mm coremat if anything. Perfect for making polyester boats heavy by soaking up lots of resin. Maybe someone can tell us what it is?

Not quite the same thing eh?

 

Since it is now almost too late to start building a VO70, I would be surprised if there wasn't a flurry of activity by the late starters.
Soren, you beat me to the p[unch on the Mac26 quote. But to finish it, "We have stayed away from sandwich construction. Most of the failures of fiberglass hulls involve the rot or delamination of balsa or foam core materials. We use only solid fiberglass laminates in the 26's hull. "

 

Also from the Mac26 site "REmovable water ballast" ...

 

ive got two questions.

WHY WONT THIS THREAD JUST ROLL OVER AND DIE?

and of course...

What's it rate?

 

He reminds me of the Terminator:

Listen! And understand! That Speghetto is out there. He can't be bargained with! He can't be reasoned with! He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!

 

I recommend that all registered users promptly edit their posts to say deleted and remove all other comments. And never respond to him again now matter how much you think you can influence him. It's what we did at SA and he starts trying to recreate the thread, then he starts debating with himself for lack of an audience which ultimately ends up with him looking very nutters indeed. Finally he goes away......

 

Guys,

I looked at the SA site, and found so many negative post about Mighetto that I decided to delete all my posts from this thread, except this one, and ignore him whenever he posts.
I don't want to see happening on this forum what happened on the SA forum.

Signing off

 

Tp52

I Join you.

 

just done
it will be funny to clean up this thread and leave frankie spaghetto on his own in an empty room

Mistral