TP52s

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by mighetto, Nov 1, 2004.

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  1. sailsmall
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    sailsmall Senior Member

    Oh you do tease Frankie.
    Of course the SSSS will eventually realize how indispensable you are, but a man of action such as yourself must jump into the breach and take charge of this desperate situation. Step up to the podium and tell them what they need to hear! Don't quit until the message has been received! There is still hope, but don't wait until it is too late.
     
  2. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    There is only recognition of the paradigm shift.

    http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15875

    illustrates that my objections to TP52s and sinkers like them have been made before. The comedy is that seeing doesn't result in changes. Those developing new designs on the east coast of the USA continue to follow the wrong course. It is like they are being paid to create a market in the USA for the failed fixed heavy keel used race boats and for supporting training programs that produce US competitors incapable of competing internationally. An evil plan otherwise known as conspiracy:mad: What a concept from the URL - that planing can occur before hull speed. This truth should have been recognized long ago by those on the east coast. Designers on the west coast knew this from surf boards. So I think did Bethwaite. Is it so unreasonable that I hope to see some young US born sailor rise to the top of the sport based on merit rather than patronage?

    Let me tell you a story. A few months ago, I was shore crew responsible for bringing a 47 foot deep fin keel vessel from the east coast to Seattle. The owner had been a Macgregor 26x sailor. The boat was motor sailed through Panama and up a bit and then weilded to a Dockwise transport. The owner had a fine adventure and none of the heavy work associated with sailing up the coast to Puget Sound. The cost of transport was 17,000 - about the cost of land transport from the east coast. But there was none of the break down and build up costs associated with truck transport. That would have been about 8,000.

    While the boat was being transported on Dockwise, the owner took the helm of Murrelet, my 26x in a race. The wind was normal but he broached my vessel not once but twice. My boat had never broached before and that is after 7 years of use. In the debriefing it was clear that helming the 47 footer had changed this fine fellows sailing style. Instead of falling off in puffs or just holding course his tendency was to head up - as I suppose was prudent in his new 47 footer. He worked to keep my 26x from planing instead of letting the boat stabilize naturally from the speed you get in puffs.

    The point is that its the salling style that must be changed for US potentials to better international competitors. Just a couple months on a big boat like a TP52 can ruin you.

    Frank L. Mighetto
    member US Sailing
    member SSSS
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2007
  3. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    So do you figure Cayard would cut a stylish figure at the helm of a Mac 26? Alex Thomson and Hugo models would "knock em' dead" in a Hugo Boss emblazoned Mac.
    Jeez...I guess we better get on the horn and let the TP crews know driving a TP 52 could make them go blind or something!

    Just to see if I can get your feet any further down your throat...maybe you'd like to explain the primary differences between the East Coast and the West Coast designers and how it came to pass that the Easties ended up on "The Dark Side"?
     
  4. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    how it came to pass that the Easties ended up on "The Dark Side"

    US society is being changed. I have had the opportunity of discussing the following with those who enlighten and bring folks like myself to higher consciousness. Huzzah that morning starbucks was fine.

    It is not just sailboat designers that need to abandon the east - as you say the dark side of the US. Those who run for governorships in eastern states, those who really care about US and world society, are also fleeing to the west. They as well are said to don foil hats and put feet in mouth.

    Easterners choose to not see because in the seeing there is obligation to support change. They likely do not know that Stanford University started projects the world knows today as SUN, Google, and You tube as well as the sailboat design and manufacturing firm known as Macgregor Yachts. For the eastern born, seeing usually only happens after moving west.

    I was encouraged that discussion of Gray’s C&C 40 footer was well advanced last Tuesday night owing to a member having recently passed trough San Francisco on a trip to recover a flying tiger trailer. By now most papers have covered the story and a large thread has been created on Sailing Anarchy. Gray and his boat have been lost to long now for me to think any good will come.

    The possibility of suicide ways especially heavy on my mind because this man is the same man who advanced databases to 99.999 uptime with artificial intelligence on first the same Tandem computers my employees helped install for the Lottery in Washington state.

    If he did commit suicide, I imagine it must have been more than one thing. The death of his mother, the problems Microsoft, his employer, is having with the tarnish of Abramoff. It could be as many as a dozen things. But the use of AI, embedded in database systems, for evil doing, may have been first on his mind.

    My favorite sailor, Larry Ellison, was probably not well liked by Gray. Oracle at one time was a bitter competitor to Tandem and Gray may well have started for Microsoft, a research center in Silicon Valley, with the notion that Microsoft was also a bitter Oracle competitor. The recent acquisition of PeopleSoft by Oracle made Oracle the largest reseller of Gray’s research which had been incorporated into Microsoft SQL database products. Gray may not have liked that.

    Because, lets remember that IBM database technology was used track millions of families later determined to be vermin best exterminated from society, because they thought a bit differently from others and were persuasive in expressing those sometimes objectionable thoughts. Lets note that we in the US had come close to that owing to the culture found mostly on the east coast of the US. Can anyone really disagree that sail boat designs from the east rarely are outside of a defined-to-be-acceptable box? Or that those daring to match European designs get there careers shortened?

    Now lets note that Time’s magazine is not incorrect. The person of the year are the folks who Google and You Tube. They are the folks who follow the SUN. Stanford University leadership rather than Ivy League east is the least relevant (and most dangerous) perspective. How depressing for a man who thought his enemy to be Larry Ellison and Oracle to see the evil doing coming from elsewhere, likely from Ballmer of Harvard and Microsoft.

    Pull like your pulling a French man off your mother?
    Let Fly




    http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30916FB395B0C708CDDAB0894DF404482
     
  5. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    Sorry Frank, your logical progression was a little too labyrinthine for me to follow. I "get" the West = good, East = bad part but not being all that clear on the whole good/bad thing I need a little more clarification as to how a cardinal point can turn the unwary traveller into a bad-boat designing demon?
    Go a little slower and be clear for us dimwits. I promise I will pay attention this time.
     
  6. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    Would you say 'mission accomplished', DG?
     
  7. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    As one of those evil Mainers might say...Uuuuhh yup!
     
  8. Buc
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    Buc Junior Member

    But Bruce Farr is from New Zealand. Isn't that west of the USA. At least that's the direction I've always taken to get there from here.
     
  9. SailDesign
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    SailDesign Old Phart! Stay upwind..

    Buc, Puh-LEEZE do not confuse this whole discussion by injecting logic into it. we are wwwaaaayyyyyy past all that!
    :)
     
  10. Buc
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    Buc Junior Member

    Sorry. You may have noticed I'm from Olympia and deduced I'm even a member of SSSS, far senior in tenure to Frank. Thought you might like to know some of us are logical. It won't happen again.
     
  11. Reemul
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    Reemul Junior Member

    Ok. I'll hold you to that Buc. :)
     
  12. SailDesign
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    SailDesign Old Phart! Stay upwind..

    Buc,
    I'm going to trust you on that. We do expect logic from your part of the world, but have discovered that the Mig-person is immune to its effects and blind to its concepts, sadly.
    Steve "in hope"
     
  13. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Buc, You probably also belong to a yacht club and have not been paying attention to South Sound Sailing Society. You and I are in the minority at SSSS. The club has renewed itself and if you take my tenure as the mid point there are many more newer members that older ones. It really is exciting when you think of our mission - to grow the sport of sailing - not maintain a status and really a decline.

    But I am told that if you google search Toliva, a thread about me comes up number 4. It's about impact Buc. Some of us make a difference and will continue to do so. Others will fade. Why not join me. I really am just passing on what others are working on that I believe is important if the US ever is to regain respect in the sailing sport.

    Now lets discuss how worthless that TP52 training was for Toliva Shoal. In the first place you would think the big boaters would notice that there is a shoal and hence the race really isn't for them. Yet there is Sudie in her Tripp. Performing poorly because get a clue - the other thing we who are advancing the sport in the US are doing is cutting out the upwind portions of races when ever possible. Think this trough. Toliva ended up being a down wind and reaching race because it was cut short at the shoal. This meant the boats rigged for upwind and crews poorly trained in reaching work (like most of the big boat racers) did poorly. Do you think the venues originally set up for PHRF really appropriate for big boats? Or can you see the problem, the scam, the damage being done when ever a TP52 or other big boat is retired with no venue but the ones chumps in the USA try to give them within PHRF.

    Frank L. Mighetto
    write in candidate all positions SSSS
    spit up your starbucks buc. See what Scott can do when away from Sudie.
    God I love this sport;
     
  14. mholguin
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    mholguin Junior Member

    How wrong I was! I alway thought upwind legs were the real tactical legs of a race!
     

  15. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Gentlemen never sail to weather - its a book, a good one. Lets not use the word wrong lets rather use the word stupid. "upwind legs were the real stupid legs of a race."

    Lets first recognize that upwind work in normal and low steady wind is the easiest not hardest point of sail. This is owing to the boats forward motion which creates additional wind meaning power that can be used for sailing. Hence practicing upwind work in normal low and steady wind is the least valuable form of practice. It has always been so. Even before the now well recognized failed experimentation with weighted fixed and thin foils.

    On the downwind and reaching points of sail there is real seamenship. The expression - anyone can put up a sail but it takes a real sailor to bring a sail in - applies. On big boats like TP52s - crews often do not get trained in reducing sail. There is the incorrect notion that the sail stays up until "God takes it down". We will never be a great sailing nation again until that kind of notion is purged from mind. In PHRF we have even required that reef points be put into sails. It is so odd that anyone would design a sail otherwise. Is this not seeable?

    Frank L. Mighetto
    member US Sailing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
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