TP52s

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by mighetto, Nov 1, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    Run with me or Run against me

    It took some time to bring down Sudie Parker. I take her most recent article in 48 North as an apology. May she kiss the arses of all South Sound Sailing Society members for taking on the Church of the Future of Software Design. May she go into private life if she wants me to stop mentioning her by name. We need not her and her big boat big-boy kind in this sport. We need more of those big-boys crying if the US is ever going to become competent internationally in sailing. We need our young potentias to be like this 14 year old English in his Tide 28. My wife is willing to take on Sudie's roll at 48 north. However I must admit Sudie has become a fine writer - even for an engineer. The goal remains to turn her and little man hansen into friends eventually. For now you may judge me by my enemies.

    Frank L. Mighetto CCP
    tonight Olympia Yacht Club
    no I am not speaking but a former Mac26x owner is
    The sport is changing in the US. Its about time

    nice spell checker on this board or is it firefox? Kudos

    All glasses raised to wobbly on the SSSS board. You do not advance in this sport by being quiet. That was old school. Thanks for the invite to Sailing Anarchy Inc. in 2007. There is much work to do. I will think about it.
     
  2. Shife
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 148
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 9
    Location: Michigan

    Shife Anarchist

    After 125 pages of this insanity, I think Frank could best be summed up by a quote by Adam Savage from the show Mythbusters: "I reject your reality, and substitute my own."

    The sport of sailing IS changing, but not quite the way you envisioned it Frankie. More TP52s are being built. The new STP65s are being built. Almost all of the new performance monohulls being built are equipped with a fixed or canting fin with bulb. Water ballast has been thrown to the curb in all but a few boats (mostly the mini6.5s).

    So, care to tell us what you were right about?
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. sailsmall
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 100
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: West Coast

    sailsmall Senior Member

    Surely you'll have Sudie and Mike eating out of your hand in no time, you smooth talker you. Be sure to let us know when you start posting on Sailing Anarchy... wouldn't want to miss any pearls of wisdom.
     
  4. siolle
    Joined: Jan 2007
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Sweden

    siolle "Hobbyist"

    Cheers everybody, this poll was started november the 1´st 2004, by the time migetto was about to be banned from most of other forums, so it´s a three year celebration!!!! I don´t want to be rude, but has it taken sailing forward? I sorry "mig..." but "mig..."´s energy of arguing seems unlimited, and sometimes (or most of the time) irritating to others.
    Does this remind me of a politican trying to defend a hopeless mission, and he is still in service, sorry "mig..." but from the first time I visited your homepage I realised "we will not win this war"....
    So thank you for three interesting years of this poll and join me in a tost for "Borat of the sailing comunity"

    Sorry but I had to do this, and if I´m violating the ruels of the forums, don´t hesitate to lock me out....
    regards
    Olle
     
  5. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    Do I have to be right all the time?

    Frankie doesn't need to be right to make a difference. All that is needed is the questions. Why does the Falcon use water ballast? Why do half the minis still do? Why are the new designs using retractable foils. Why does Perry build boats with retractable and exchangable bulbs. Why are there so many TP52s up for sale.

    http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47982

    Why do those Corrinthians tell me at the Seattle Boat Show that I am waisting money with PHRF? That PHRF is dead? Did the "Sudie Parker Way" contribute to that? What was the reason to extend the 48 North top boat list to 25 - was that so Braveheart could be included? Why was Glory so far up in the list? Did it have something to do with cutting off the last one third of the TP52 and leaving a lot of ballast at the CSR yard? Why didn't Glory and Braveheart compete on the same course at Swiftsure? What was the reason PHRF NW failed to create a TP52 one design class. Will I see any TP52s in Valencia in may?. Will Larry Ellison restore dignity to the Sailing Sport in the US? And why will the designs for the 2012? Americas cup vary so much from this years events. Why are designs pre 1930 so thin? Is this failed experimental period involving fixed weighted fins really ending?

    Lets also ask why US designers dare to question my reality given that the US is well recognized as the least capable in this sport. Now tell me that wasn't fun

    Frank L. Mighetto
    mighetto@eskimo.com
    Seattle Boat Show Saturday;
    Party afterwards;
    SSSS agenda Tell your friends
     
  6. member 10795
    Joined: Sep 2005
    Posts: 30
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 4
    Location: milky way

    member 10795 Sensei

    They don't question your "reality" because they don't want to waste their time arguing with the village idiot.
     
  7. sailsmall
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 100
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: West Coast

    sailsmall Senior Member

    Check it out Frankie, from the thread on SA that you referenced:
    Dude, you're losing ground here! There are still more new boats coming on line than used boats for sale. It's time to get serious if you're going to demonstrate to the yachting world that the TP52 class is an obsolete concept. Face it, you've been slacking off lately and the unquestioning ignorants are gaining ground.
     
  8. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    Dude, you're losing ground here! There are still more new boats coming on line than used boats for sale. It's time to get serious if you're going to demonstrate to the yachting world that the TP52 class is an obsolete concept. Face it, you've been slacking off lately and the unquestioning ignorants are gaining ground.

    I apologize for slacking off. Someone had to alert the world to the wrongs of Bill Neukom, current president of the American Bar Association, former handler of Abramoff, the man who suffered the stunning defeat at the hands of Clinton/Reno's DOJ and created the climate of corruption now being cleaned up in the Bush Administration, to undo that.

    That culture - also known as the Microsoft/ Preston Gates and Ellis way - unfortunately is also the culture we work to change in our sailing sport. Did you see who made Time person of the year? You and I did. Take a bow, and lets get to work.

    The TP52s are undeniably the last of the experiment in sailing vessels whose designers thought mathematically derived limits of positive stability valuable. But when chat of them we are really chatting about what Sudie Parker promotes as "big boats". So to the extent that one bad mouths TP52s, one also criticizes other sailboat designs which fit in this big boat category.

    The big boats have ruined the sport in the US. We see that in outcomes. US sailors just are not selected for competitive crews internationally. The TP52s, like other big boats in the past, were to have been dumped in Puget sound. Once put out to pasture, their new chump owners were to attract our young potentials and ruin them with training that does not now and never will again be relivant. For those potentials to ever have a shot internationally, significant time-taking unlearning is necessary. That unlearning process is currently done through boats like Stars and Flying Tigers. My club SSSS recently attracted a TP52 owner for Star racing. This is a good thing. What I am proposing is that perhaps owners TP52s and big boats in general should not recruit those under the age of 50. THere are a lot of young 50 year olds. This for the good of US Sailing.

    Frank L. Mighetto
    member US Sailing
    member SSSS
     
  9. Reemul
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Puyallup, Wa

    Reemul Junior Member



    What TP52 owner is that Frank? Bill Buchan and John Buchan are different people you know. And as far as I'm aware he hasn't confirmed being there
     
  10. sailsmall
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 100
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: West Coast

    sailsmall Senior Member

    What is this irrelevant training that you refer to? What skills or knowledge do people need to unlearn? Try to be specific.
     
  11. SailDesign
    Joined: Jan 2003
    Posts: 1,964
    Likes: 138, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 650
    Location: Jamestown, RI, USA

    SailDesign Old Phart! Stay upwind..


    Hah! Thanks, sailsmall - I needed a good laugh this morning.... :)
    Steve (with yet ANOTHER brand new TP52 shaping up in the shop)
     
  12. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    Wonderful. A thinker. The most irrelevant training is the notion that if you keep your mouth shut and support the boat owner in all protests that one day you may rise to a position of importance in the sport. The TP52s are touted as the vessels for Kings. One of the unfortunate parts of the history of our sport, is this notion that what gets discussed on the boat stays on the boat. It was a king or some piece of royalty that started that tradition. It is hog wash in a Web 2.0 world.

    But I think specifically that bow work is irrelevant. Code zeros of course are on rollers. Let me back up. This is a sad story about the Seattle Sailing Foundation.

    I am at the annual meeting trying to support the young potentials from Friday Harbor where I keep my boat in the summer, space permitting. There had been a strong effort to get a young sailor onto the TP52 disney show. The effort had failed and folks wanted to know why. It was painfully obvious that the system of patronage had been applied in selecting the young potentials. There had been no tests on Bethwait simulators. And when the question was put to Honey as to what could be done to get on an ocean racing vessel I nearly shouted out Huzzah. But it was really sad so I just said nothing. Because the answer was lots of ocean sailing. A catch 22 really. Young US potentials can't get on crews without ocean sailing experience and they can't get the experience without getting on the crews. You pretty much need to be born into the sport or otherwise have connections in the US. This we must change in order to become competitive internationally.

    Now this is a design forum so I now get to be specific about design - especially owing to my mentioning the Seattle Sailing Foundation.

    Modern sailboat design requires the designer to think about man overboard situations. The Seattle Sailing Foundation holds a patent for which West Marine and other supplier's pays for when selling life slings. Proper design of a sail boat makes unnecessary those slings as you bring the man in from the stern. Now TP52s do not suffer from this but I think if you are getting training on Life Slings and do not intend to sail on sinkers of poor design that knock bowmen into the water on every other race via the mechanism of a spinnaker poll you are getting irrelevant training. I recommend that the Seattle Sailing Foundation encourage design that makes unneeded life slings. IE spoon buttocks and asymmetric roller furling so the ocean racer need not go to the bow so often and get knocked in.

    Think this through. Will the Seattle Sailing Foundation do so? It's source of income is the very patent for the life sling. You do not need it with proper design. Will the board give up that income. Or will they continue to encourage young potentials not to think about and especially not to discuss such things. Rise Olympia Sailing Foundation. Seattle Sailing Foundation actually does harm.

    Both the Seattle Sailing Foundation and TP52 + other big boat trainers, in general teach young potentials not to question, not to think, not to post on the internet and when breaking those guidelines to criticize boats with water and outboard based ballast,

    We can take this up at the Performance Sailing Seminar, and also the Macgregor 36 foot multi that did so well at Duamish
    Tonight Rods

    Frank L. Mighetto
    member US Sailing
    member SSSS
     
  13. bobothehobo
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 63
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 47
    Location: Newport

    bobothehobo Junior Member

    Please Steve, we all know no one is actually builiding these contraptions.

    -BC
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    But what you do not apparently know is how we who will make the sailing sport great again in the USA have succeeded in ridding our country of TP52s. We now work to rid the country of all the sailing vessels that have been holding us back.

    Let me tell you how this is being done because I have had something to do with it. The Windward Leeward courses have been shortened to the point now that it is just to much work for the big boats to put up traditional crew whacking spinnakers. After two years we now are seeing the dropping out of the larger yachts from our buoy courses at SSSS. Without the spinnakers they also drop into cruising class but that is another problem.Then when there are international competitions - like the Tasars; a third buoy is simply demanded by the competitors. This makes the course an Olympic Style course. We have also determined that there is nothing rule based requiring the first mark to be directly upwind. Hence when I eventually will be pressed into committee work, the course likely will be a leeward leeward. These things we do to support the changes starting in 1995 that first allowed water ballast and stimulated the formation of IRC. And should have resulted in more designers working on boats like MacGregor Yachts.

    Last night I confirmed that PHRF-NW is stumbling badly. The year before there was lost registration money's. This year the head handicapper quit. I was encouraged to propose that a trophy be created for boats racing IRC at SSSS but see value also in a trophy for multies which I think will be established prior to Toliva Shoal race, our biggest. We work for IRC later. The PHRF system needs support right now. I had been holding off on dues only to get the sails measured. With that effort now not required there is no reason not to send in a check. Good news about the stumble is that the re-rating of boats doesn't happen. That preserves the rule allowing emptying water ballast during a race which I had worried might be changed.

    From the standpoint of getting young potentials into Ocean Racing. I do not think that PHRF race experience is going to be particularly helpful. This from the Friday Harbor experience. IRC represents a system that may look better on a sailing resume. These kids at Friday Harbor sail ocean PHRF all the time. It just doesn't mean anything to those who sail TP52s. IRC probably does.

    Frank L. Mighetto
    US Sailing, SSSS
     

  15. DGreenwood
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 722
    Likes: 40, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 507
    Location: New York

    DGreenwood Senior Member

    I suspect it would be very entertaining to hear from the other members of the SSSS what their take is on Frank's paradigm busting changes to the US sailing scene. I don't suppose we could get them to contribute here? Or maybe get their addresses?
    Now that would be some good comedy, I betcha' !
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.