TP52s

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by mighetto, Nov 1, 2004.

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  1. Figgy
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    Figgy Senior Member

    lol..Dont worry Crag, a few of us got it :)
     
  2. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    It seems to be that way, yes, and I think a lot of us did get it :cool:
    Curious how the parameters of the MacCrap change when the tank is full/empty... also curious as to what the hull of this thing actually is made of, as we have one around here and it seems to flex against the fenders a bit too much to be all fibreglass.
     
  3. Mark 42
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    Mark 42 Senior Member

    1/8 inch of chopper gun layup flexes a lot. :p
     
  4. frankofile
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    frankofile Junior Member

    According to sailingscuttlebutt today (actually an excerpt from Daily Sail):
    This is so confusing Frank, every statement contradicts the facts as you have presented them. Please put this into context for us. Are the Curmudgeon and Daily Sail suddenly now part of the evil Teeters/East Coast (of North America :rolleyes:) conspiracy against proper sailboat design and training in the US??? :eek:
     
  5. TP 52 Defender
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    TP 52 Defender Actual Sailor

    Remember Frank qoutes "Facts" not facts .....
     
  6. nakwakto00
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    nakwakto00 New Member

    Hello

    I'm new to this. Reads interesting.
     
  7. frankofile
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    frankofile Junior Member

    Reads bizarre to me.
     
  8. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    Bizzare? Maybe.... I usually reserve that term for basement-inventor articles claiming to have solved the problem of perpetual motion, thus redefining all of thermodynamics in one fell swoop. Thankfully we don't see too much of that stuff here.

    On another note... new TP52s for $1.9 M, ready to sail? Somehow I thought they were more than that... time to start saving up, I guess :)
     
  9. Mark 42
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    Mark 42 Senior Member

    MacGregor 26's definitely reside in the realm outside the
    influence of the laws of thermodynamics.

    Entropy is for sissies anyway. :p
     
  10. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    East Coast

    Ha Ha, I am a native. Born in North Carolina. There is little future for a sailor thar. Rode Island (sic) is no longer the sailing state. That whole part of the country suffers from litterally mob mentality. It saddens me to see what they have done with mystic seaport.

    On the west coast we sail the tall ships. We see little value in team building on other craft. Those who put young potentials on TP52s and craft like them are doing no favors twards them. Them that failed to get on Morning Light be the lucky ones. Argh mate!

    Seriously though, I suspect Roy Disney is going to drop the TP52 before the end of filming. We already have the VO70 kid boat. What a story. Apparently Hans was knocked unconcious; there was no chance of saving him. The lessons learned include value in roller furling.

    Frank L. Mighetto
    South Sound Sailing Society
    Eagle Island is a go. Get behind me oh Sudie er Satan
    we work on east coast time in waterworld
     
  11. SailDesign
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    SailDesign Old Phart! Stay upwind..

    And yet, they keep ordering new TP52s. Strange how that works.......
    Nice, though ,since we get to build them :)
     
  12. mholguin
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    mholguin Junior Member

    Question for Frank (seriously):

    I had the impression that youngster were trained in small sailboats (Optmists, sunfish, lasers, 470, FD, Snipes and so on) and Grand-Prix sailors sailed in large, complex, modern and expensive boats, (like Tp-52 for instance).

    However, you make it look like it is exactly the opposite.

    OTH can you please explain, what exactly is the relationship between a fixed keel high end boat, with a conspiracy to fill your sailing area with used boats? It doesn't make any sens to me why somebody will expend close to 2MM in the Mediterranean while thinking "JE JE JE, I can't wait to drop it in Pudget Sound"... Which is pretty much what you seem to imply...

    Last, I've read your site on the Mac-26. You state the Mac has movable ballast. And you also claim the daggerboard in the Mac is -pardon me I cannot recall the exact words - tirmmable. On the ballast, being able to fill it up or empty it, does not fall into movable ballast. VO-70 have movable ballast, one you can swing from port to starboard to increase leverage. Secondly, on the daggerboard, it seems is just a matter of poor fitting between the fin and the trunk.

    Can you please explain all this?

    Please note the tone of my post, I'm not making fun, nor flaming, just need to make some sense out of all this posts, and maybe learn a thing or two...
     
  13. Mark 42
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    Mark 42 Senior Member

    That's an oxymoron... about as bad as "Practical Sailor" :D
     
  14. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    I had the impression that youngster were trained in small sailboats (Optmists, sunfish, lasers, 470, FD, Snipes and so on) and Grand-Prix sailors sailed in large, complex, modern and expensive boats, (like Tp-52 for instance).

    The making of a proper sailor has always involved more than plopping a young potential into a dinghy. Seamanship and sportsmanship are just as important. One of the sad things about racing PHRF-NW is that when a protest flag goes up you will have three or four boats do turns. What is going on is that the experienced know they have only a 50 percent chance of winning a protest even when they have played completely by the rules. This is because crews on other boats are trained to be witnesses and their testimony can be influenced. Hence even when right a protest may not be winnable. You are just as well off taking the unfair penulty on the course. If a flag goes up near you - you have little idea if it is directed to your boat or another. Hence multiple boats do turns. It really is pathetic.

    The reason we have famous race boats named code-of-silence is to call attention to a system of patronage where the young potentials who learn how to keep their mouths shut and outright lie (the scum) rise to the top. A proper training program cuts through that by using simulators. Because we in the Northwest do not have a program with a single simulator, I tend to view groups like the sailing foundation as wrong doers for the sport. With a simulator you can identify the cream and have that rise to the top rather than the cheaters.

    OTH can you please explain, what exactly is the relationship between a fixed keel high end boat, with a conspiracy to fill your sailing area with used boats? It doesn't make any sens to me why somebody will expend close to 2MM in the Mediterranean while thinking "JE JE JE, I can't wait to drop it in Pudget Sound"... Which is pretty much what you seem to imply...

    Are TP52s fixed keel high end boats? I think of them as the last in a long failed experiment where the promoters didn't understand how to use computers and test tanks. I am uncertain of your question? But the dumping of obsolete racing designs onto the west coast of the USA - especially Puget Sound - is a well accepted fact. The area is uncorrectly identified as best for deep fixed fin vessels. SF Bay and the area around the New York Yacht Club have lots of shallows so both racing and cruising are limited for fix fin deap draft boats. In fact the entire world is becoming less ands less favorable to these designs because there is no commercial reason for dredging. With the exception of Boston, all of the USA is better suited to retractable foils. The TP52s were designed for east coast conditions and their name use to mean Trans Pacific which implies west cost. Since the box rule didn't require meeting SNAME standards they were frauds from the start IMO. Not only have they proven to be owner-undesirable for pacific crossing but with the excepion of the last few generations they are also designer-undesirable for any kind of ocean duty.

    Last, I've read your site on the Mac-26. You state the Mac has movable ballast. And you also claim the daggerboard in the Mac is -pardon me I cannot recall the exact words - tirmmable. On the ballast, being able to fill it up or empty it, does not fall into movable ballast. VO-70 have movable ballast, one you can swing from port to starboard to increase leverage. Secondly, on the daggerboard, it seems is just a matter of poor fitting between the fin and the trunk.

    The movement that is important is on and off. PHRF-NW racing rules are concerned only with that kind of movement. The VO-70s allowed the movement of solid ballast from side to side. We are not allowed that in PHRF racing but it is allowed in the mini transat racing. I have been told by both the mini-transat and VO-70 experienced that the movement of internal solid ballast is the greater provider of stability. This of course requires labor and a different sailing style. Because a tack requires a lot of labor to move gear from side to side you want to make fewer of them.

    The Mac26x has a gybing (or jybing) center foil. I no longer think of it as a centerboard. It is best described as a canard. On fast downwind runs a canard will pop to the survace and with my new center foil I observe exactly that behavior. I have often speculated that trim taps could be added to that foil for upwind work but have found that partial lifting of the swing keel gives the same effect involving steering. I operate this craft as a bilge keel design now.

    Please note the tone of my post, I'm not making fun, nor flaming, just need to make some sense out of all this posts, and maybe learn a thing or two...

    When you run for office you have to expect some "funning" and dirty tricks. Just remember me when you vote for directorships at South Sound Sailing Society and US Sailing. My sailing carrier has advanced about ten times as fast as those buying into the code of silence. Yours can as well.

    Frank L. Mighetto
     

  15. frankofile
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    frankofile Junior Member

    Frank, a nicely thought out reply to what is clearly a sincere request for information. I note some gaps though, and there are some things that you may not be aware of.

    In any regatta, the Sailing Instructions, or SIs, may be written to modify the Racing Rules of Sailing, or RRSs. A common modification is to require witnesses to a fouling incident who intend to testify to do a circle. If the RC sees the event, and determines that certain boats had a good view of it, they can inform the potential witnesses over VHF that they must do a circle. That keeps people from suddenly appearing at the hearing to provide testimony who haven't done circles out on the water. This probably explains all the boats you see doing circles. It seems unfair at first, but puts a great deal of pressure on the protesting yacht not to fly their flag without good reason since so many of their friends will be adversely affected and will have to be provided with compensating beverages at the bar after the racing.

    Many programs have indeed tried electronic simulators for just the reasons you cite, however it has generally been found that even the best computer programs lack important analogies to real sailing. Plus, there is always the possibilty that the student is really updating his MySpace page or sending IMs to his friends whenever the coach's back is turned. Therefore, most reputable programs have gone back to the original standard for teaching racing tactics, seamanship, and boathandling; that is, pushing little wooden mock-ups around a painted body of water with sticks while the coach calls out condition variations (puffs, waves, etc.) according to rolls of the dice.

    All true, but I think you missed the crux of the question here. Namely, why are potential boat owners on the West Coast, especially in Puget Sound, so stupid that they keep buying these beat-up old war horses of obviously flawed design? I'm interested in any insight you may offer.

    A minor correction here, you seem to have some terminology confused. A gybing (or jybing) foil rotates the leading edge to weather (toward the windward side of the boat) under the lift forces generated by sailing across the wind. This concept was developed under the mistaken idea that the center foil is the primary foil in resisting sideways forces. The foil in a Mac26x is properlly called a "tacking" foil because it rotates the trailing edge to weather. As you correctly point out, this translates much of the sideways resistance to the rudder, resulting in a more efficient configuration. Raising the centerboard extends this process; however, care must be taken not to exceed the optimal foil-foil lift/thrust sharing ratio. You might be interested in researching, if you are not already aware of them, the investigations of hyper-optimal foil shape controls. The major design firms try to discredit this work, of course, but some higher learning institutions and some of the more original thinkers have produced some interesting results.
     
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