TP52s

[Mark 42]

Maybe Sponsorship is In Order

I can probably scrape up $5 and donate some old life vests and a cooler.

 

[Shife]

I can probably scrape up $5 and donate some old life vests and a cooler.

Don't forget the winch handles, some oregano, and a frying pan.

 

[Mark 42]

And a backup emergency starter cord.

I actually have an extra aluminium frying pan in my shop which I can spare.

I mainly use it to melt lead.
BTW, if you're making a sounding line weight on your wife's kitchen counter,
put the mold in a large deep-dish pizza pan. Formica can only take so much
heat, and vinyl flooring doesn't do a whole lot better.

Not sure which would be worse though...
If he failed the journey we might be held responsible,
if he succeeded, we might be held responsible

 

[DGreenwood]

The only required ingredient he possesses for an ocean crossing...is wind.

And he's got plenty of it.

 

[mighetto]

"The entire line dies this year. Does anyone really disagree? "

I would think the boys in area on Glory dissagree as they are haveing Hakes build them a new TP 52. I can not think of one pro who "race" a M26 in the Transpac (since they can not legaly do the race).

New boats being built as we get ready to start a new year and the class continues to build new boats - no new owners have cut 1/3 off of their boat (unless it was to make form changes). Also no measured TP 52 can cut 1/2 of the balast since the CG would be screwwed. 33 active class boats, 5 TP 52's in IRC configuration (non-class), 3 in build sheds so yes Frank I disagree since the facts show that your claim is false. Even though the boat I used to play with has been sold I still see the class for what it is - one of the top classes out there ...

Once again Frank proves he knows nothing about the class and very little about sailing.

Apparently I know more about Glory than Defender. 52 Defender it was Glory that was extensively modifed with reportedly 1/3 of her rear end removed and a new more stable hull form grafted onto her. I have been given the name of a yard with the remains. I should be more kind. We no longer consider Glory a TP52. If you are counting her as IRC configuration then she is reborn. Seahorse lists two 52s as yet to be launched. They will be the last of the failed experiment and will never make it outside of the Med. The entire line should be seen for what it is, a line of club racers at best, that is appropriate for bouy racing where other vessels can spot for problems. As they age and professional sailors are replaced, their use outside of protected waters goes into queston. They heel two much for use as ocean cruisers.

The Mac26x is perfectly legal for the West Marine TransPac. Go find a professional who has concerns regarding racing a Mac26x across an ocean for what they get paid to attract new sailors for an amusement ride on a TP52. Tell him to defend his position here. As has been pointed out, with the exeception of the last generation, TP52s do not cut it for ocean crossing by the capsize risk ratio.

Look I have a chance to question Stan Honey at the end of this month. Given his complete turn around on the LPS argument for TP52s and its abandonment by even ORC, do you think a blunt question like, Are TP52s the Edsels of sailboat design to crusty? Hell he has probably been waiting to disassociate himself from that failure for a year. Go VO70s. Should be fun.

The Cal 24s already hold the title of Volkswagon of sailboats. I was content with Corvair (you know unsafe at any speed) for the Mac26x except now I am seeing something different. From oddball and dubious to mature and proven. How about Minicooper? The truth will set us free.

 

[mighetto]

"The entire line dies this year. Does anyone really disagree? "

I would think the boys in area on Glory dissagree as they are haveing Hakes build them a new TP 52. I can not think of one pro who "race" a M26 in the Transpac (since they can not legaly do the race).

New boats being built as we get ready to start a new year and the class continues to build new boats - no new owners have cut 1/3 off of their boat (unless it was to make form changes). Also no measured TP 52 can cut 1/2 of the balast since the CG would be screwwed. 33 active class boats, 5 TP 52's in IRC configuration (non-class), 3 in build sheds so yes Frank I disagree since the facts show that your claim is false. Even though the boat I used to play with has been sold I still see the class for what it is - one of the top classes out there ...

Once again Frank proves he knows nothing about the class and very little about sailing.

Apparently I know more about Glory than Defender. 52 Defender it was Glory that was extensively modifed with reportedly 1/3 of her rear end removed and a new more stable hull form grafted onto her. I have been given the name of a yard with the remains. I should be more kind. We no longer consider Glory a TP52. If you are counting her as IRC configuration then she is reborn. Seahorse lists two 52s as yet to be launched. They will be the last of the failed experiment and will never make it outside of the Med.

The Mac26x is perfectly legal for the West Marine TransPac. Go find a professional who has concerns regarding racing a Mac26x across an ocean for what they get paid to attract new sailors for an amusement ride on a TP52. Tell him to defend his position here. As has been pointed out, with the exeception of the last generation, TP52s do not cut it for ocean crossing by the capsize risk ratio. And professional racers are known to pay to play on the mini transats which are not Mac26x like.

Look I have a chance to question Stan Honey at the end of this month. Given his complete turn around on the LPS argument for TP52s and its abandonment by even ORC, do you think a blunt question like, Are TP52s the Edsels of sailboat design to crusty? Hell he has probably been waiting to disasociate himself from that failure for a year. Go VO70s. Should be fun.

The Cal 24s already hold the title of Volkswagon of sailboats. I was content with Corvair (you know unsafe at any speed) for the Mac26x except now I am seeing something different. From oddball and dubious to mature and proven. How about Minicooper? The truth will set us free. The truth is that you are better off with an SC70 than a TP52 and we already have those in Puget Sound available to the masses to ride. An SC70 is resume enhancing. A 12 metre, a TP52, no. These should be limited to folks over 50, for the good of the sport in the US. The young potentials should be on bethwaite simulators.

Frank L. Mighetto
South Sound Sailing Society
US Sailing

 

[frankofile]

Ask Stan Honey to help you explain to the rest of the audience the ways in which the Mac26x is superior to the TP52.

Your prediction of the complete demise of the TP52 class by the end of this year has been noted. We'll see where they, and you, stand come January 1 2007.

 

[DGreenwood]

Ask Stan Honey to help you explain to the rest of the audience the ways in which the Mac26x is superior to the TP52.

Your prediction of the complete demise of the TP52 class by the end of this year has been noted. We'll see where they, and you, stand come January 1 2007.

You have not learned, Frank never---ever tires of the repugnant flavor of his own foot.
Nor will you ever succeed in getting a response from him concerning his previous statements.
His conciousness lies somewhere along the banks of the river of sewage that flows from his brain to his mouth.

Him questioning Stan Honey about such matters is comical. Imagine Jack Benny grilling Itzhak Perlman about the finer points of the violin.

 

[Mark 42]

We all know the kazoo is a far superior instrument.

 

[DGreenwood]

We all know the kazoo is a far superior instrument.

Now that is really good comedy.

 

[TP 52 Defender]

Frank - the new Glory (a TP52) is currently in the same shed as us. She is being built right now and is not on the Seahorse build list (that is the 3rd).

Glory after the mod was re-measured and was a TP 52 still (as she is today) – she then raced in the Global Championship in Miami this spring. Whether you consider her to be a TP 52 or not is of little importance as the class says she is.

I am a professional sailor and I have great concerns regarding the Mac 26 in the open ocean, while she is a capable pocket cruiser she is meant for very limited blue water work.
The loose ballast system used to lower the CG for sailing is not acceptable for ocean racing (remember it is simply liquid bilge ballast [as in the same as the stone ballast carried in the tall ships] – not movable ballast as in modern racing yacht).
Furthermore the West Marine race is the Pacific Cup not the Transpac – different races. I believe however in both of these races one will find that the M26 does not meet the minimum requirement (and that none has ever competed in either). In regard to the Mac 26 and racing the author Terry Pratchet may have summed it up best. A character when asked his thoughts about a malnourished horse commented that it was certainly a horse that could race but it would be best if it where not against other horses – this is the lot of the Mac 26 when compared to race boats.

You are correct in your statement, “…the mini transats which are not Mac26x like.” The Mini Transats are racing vessels; the M26 is a cruiser that few chose to race. However having been in the open ocean in a TP52 during distance races as well as having spent many days in the ocean in them in buoys races I find your claim that they are incapable of ocean racing laughable at best. Having sailed the SC 70 and their turbo cousins I would still take a TP 52 over then for buoys or ocean racing.

Frank is astoundingly correct on the fact that the class is now more towards the buoys race side of the box and there distance races are usually less than 300 NM. However this is the way the owners of the class wanted it to go and while some owners have left many have joined. Sadly the class does now reside in the Med for ½ to ¾ of the year and a US class does not seem to be able to get above 6 boats. This fact does not seem to dissuade many owners from building new boats both here and abroad. As to Mark C – I’ll ask him his opinion when I see him next (Nov best guess) of the TP 52’s.

Frank once again you show your knowledge is far less than those who have been involved in the class and who are active racing sailors. While sadly our TP 52 has gone on to a new family our crew is looking forward to a new weapon to go out and race. Thanks for proving once again the only certain people when looking at themselves can say they have whit but fail to realize that they only have ½ …..

 

[Mark 42]

Now that is really good comedy.

But, when you think about it... cheap, and almost anyone can operate one without much training.

Imagine being known as "The Midori of the Kazoo".
I'm sure if Stradivarius had lived long enough he would have invented it first.

But the best line in this thread may be "All that is required for sailing is wind..." (Paraphrased)

Have you ever met a kid who says he wants to learn something, but then halfway
through instruction decides he already knows it better and hauls off to try and
do it himself, ignoringing what you taught him, ignorant of what you later might
have taught him, ...
and then quits and makes up some lame excuse for his own failure?

Several people have offered to take Frank racing with them so that he can learn
how to be a better sailor, but generally he declines &/or offends.

Until he gets rescued by the Coast Guard and chastised publicly for inept
seamanship by some authority (perhaps via inquiry) he will never understand
how little he knows, and how wrong what little he does "know" truly is.

If 1819 message posts haven't taught him anything, 1820 won't either.

 

[mighetto]

Frank - the new Glory (a TP52) is currently in the same shed as us. She is being built right now and is not on the Seahorse build list (that is the 3rd).

Glory after the mod was re-measured and was a TP 52 still (as she is today) – she then raced in the Global Championship in Miami this spring. Whether you consider her to be a TP 52 or not is of little importance as the class says she is.

I am a professional sailor and I have great concerns regarding the Mac 26 in the open ocean, while she is a capable pocket cruiser she is meant for very limited blue water work.
The loose ballast system used to lower the CG for sailing is not acceptable for ocean racing (remember it is simply liquid bilge ballast [as in the same as the stone ballast carried in the tall ships] – not movable ballast as in modern racing yacht).
Furthermore the West Marine race is the Pacific Cup not the Transpac – different races. I believe however in both of these races one will find that the M26 does not meet the minimum requirement (and that none has ever competed in either). In regard to the Mac 26 and racing the author Terry Pratchet may have summed it up best. A character when asked his thoughts about a malnourished horse commented that it was certainly a horse that could race but it would be best if it where not against other horses – this is the lot of the Mac 26 when compared to race boats.

You are correct in your statement, “…the mini transats which are not Mac26x like.” The Mini Transats are racing vessels; the M26 is a cruiser that few chose to race. However having been in the open ocean in a TP52 during distance races as well as having spent many days in the ocean in them in buoys races I find your claim that they are incapable of ocean racing laughable at best. Having sailed the SC 70 and their turbo cousins I would still take a TP 52 over then for buoys or ocean racing.

Frank is astoundingly correct on the fact that the class is now more towards the buoys race side of the box and there distance races are usually less than 300 NM. However this is the way the owners of the class wanted it to go and while some owners have left many have joined. Sadly the class does now reside in the Med for ½ to ¾ of the year and a US class does not seem to be able to get above 6 boats. This fact does not seem to dissuade many owners from building new boats both here and abroad. As to Mark C – I’ll ask him his opinion when I see him next (Nov best guess) of the TP 52’s.

Frank once again you show your knowledge is far less than those who have been involved in the class and who are active racing sailors. While sadly our TP 52 has gone on to a new family our crew is looking forward to a new weapon to go out and race. Thanks for proving once again the only certain people when looking at themselves can say they have whit but fail to realize that they only have ½ …..

I am proud enough of my statements, knowledge and analysis to use my real name. How about you defender? We have few rules on my ocean race trainer but one is no chatting about horses. This comes I suppose from the days when mystery meat was the chow of the day, or I supose it is the blame the French thing. But also it is also owing to bucking which you do not want your horse or boat to do. Do not we all know this? We also do not chat golf, a widow maker of a sport, that has claimed to many pure of the sea.

The fact of the mater and the reason for this thread, is that by SNAME standards, the first builds of the TP52s could not be sold for ocean crossing by any reputable dealer but the Mac26x vessels from day one could. Your concerns sound like the musing of one who had morbid fascination with my ride or high hopes for the 1/2 sized TP52s. The TP26s were to have been race trainers - in competition with the Mac26x. The vested interests in the TP line were so high that the US delegation to the GP rule making body were encouraged to walk out because the rules supported water ballast and canting keels over Limits of Positive Stability. Those rules BTW went on the books the year before the Mac26x was launched. On the Transats.

If the form of ballast used in the 26x (innertial movable ballast) were allowed, it is likely that the Mini Transats would become more Mac26x like. The rules for the class require that the water ballast be mounted close to the top deck to simulate rail meat. Of course canting keels are also allowed and it is interesting that even though both forms of ballast have been in use for over a decade, over half use water ballast.

I suspect the current fascination with canting keels is related to promoters with patents because, as you have hinted, in rough weather water ballast is far superior, and proven from the days of Columbus.

FYI, the Mac26x tank is baffled, I have yet to hear sloshing and movement is simply on or off the boat. Lets recognize that the east coast designers in the USA didn't have the benefit of surfers like on the west coast of the USA and down under. In addition they worked in a society where open discussion was rewarded with shunning and a system of patronage determined who's sailing career would rise and whos would fail. The net result is that US sailors are the least respected in world competition and the most likely to loose for the owner.

Kahn gave his TP52 a ride and promotes Bethwaite simulators after putting that horse down. But we can still learn from these Edsels. What was done to old Glory that put TP52 Braveheart on a different Swiftsure course and blew away the competition on the Lightship course? Are those changes showing up in new Glory? Does old Gory have two or more sets of bulbs like Icon so that she can be a TP52 if wanted or can be raced for performance IRC?

Frank L. Mighetto
South Sound Sailing Society
US Sailing

 

[DGreenwood]

Whoa! Frank...lucidity is eluding you. You had better check your med level. Hard to believe, but you made less sense on that last one than you usually do. ( Is it possible to make negative sense???)

 

[DGreenwood]

Just out of curiosity Frank, have you ever been to the East Coast?