D
Doug Lord
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Great pictures-thanks.
The Boat Design & Boatbuilding Site
You don't appear to have understood that these foils operate in a different mode to foils which aim to maintain attached flow on both surfaces.
Actually I think the design is quite clever in attempting to address lift control issues without the use of moving parts and applaud the designers for taking a different approach to the current technology. Sure, sharp edges may risk law suits from accidents but that doesn't invalidate the design.
The real proof will be in on the water performance.
Sigurd,
"seriously, if it is a foil, the makers of it must be completely retarded"
Thanks, I will put this on my CV
IT IS A PROTOTYPE!
We are well aware of the undesirability of a pointy thing at the front. I am currently working on a blunted version but do need to keep the high stall resistance of the highly swept leading edge. However, any ventilated foil that is going to work effectively near the water surface will have a small radius leading edge, this can make it into something of a knife edge which may be acceptable, a point certainly is not.
Jon.
"seriously, if it is a foil, the makers of it must be completely retarded"
Thanks, I will put this on my CV
IT IS A PROTOTYPE!
We are well aware of the undesirability of a pointy thing at the front. I am currently working on a blunted version but do need to keep the high stall resistance of the highly swept leading edge. However, any ventilated foil that is going to work effectively near the water surface will have a small radius leading edge, this can make it into something of a knife edge which may be acceptable, a point certainly is not.
Jon.
D
Doug Lord
Guest
Well, it's only a matter of time before a foil or foils using Jon's extraordinary design is used on a foiler designed to jump. Whether anyone but me will enjoy it is an open question.......
Chris Ostlind
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You have to know how thin that sounds, when anybody who reads your previous writings, realizes that you said the very same thing about the foils done by Ilett.
Has John fallen out of favor in your camp, now, Doug?
Is it past the time when you move along to a yummy new flavor in all things technical?
Howes should be so lucky.
Has John fallen out of favor in your camp, now, Doug?
Is it past the time when you move along to a yummy new flavor in all things technical?
Howes should be so lucky.
D
Doug Lord
Guest
Ostlind, you're so consumed with trying to ridicule me you've lost track of the subject being discussed. Your comment is just plain ridiculous-so steeped in your focus on me as to be silly!
John Illett NEVER designed a foil! He's a BUILDER of foils....He applied a known
altitude control system to the Moth in an innovative way and is the Father of the Revolution in many respects-but he is not a foil designer.
Jon has DESIGNED a foil from scratch that has the potential to take the bi-foiler revolution to the next level by eliminating those issues that have caused crashes therefore simplifying the whole bi-foiler concept.
---------------
You need to lose the focus on personal attacks against me that results in so many uninformed,ridiculous comments!
John Illett NEVER designed a foil! He's a BUILDER of foils....He applied a known
altitude control system to the Moth in an innovative way and is the Father of the Revolution in many respects-but he is not a foil designer.
Jon has DESIGNED a foil from scratch that has the potential to take the bi-foiler revolution to the next level by eliminating those issues that have caused crashes therefore simplifying the whole bi-foiler concept.
---------------
You need to lose the focus on personal attacks against me that results in so many uninformed,ridiculous comments!
Chris Ostlind
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You have made some amusing statements in this last post, so let's look at them in segments to get a real understanding of just what you might be attempting to say.
Clearly you mistake my intentions, Douglas. There's nothing silly at all regarding my statement. You did gush uncontrollably about Ilett and his breakthrough foils for Moths. You did go on, ad nauseum, about being able to jump a Moth foiler as a necessary function for a really great foiling boat. Anyone on this list, if they have the time and the inclination, can look up all your past posts on the matter and it's all right there.
When you first got your teeth into the gristle of this jumping folly, Ilett's foils were the only game in town that had the routine production strength required to hold up for hard core Moth sailing. By the simplest association, that means that you were very much into the foils being produced by Ilett as the foils of choice for jumping. You can't refute this point and it is the center of the argument I presented. So what, I ask, is ridiculous, when it is documented already from your own mouth (keyboard)?
Nothing in my comment intimated that Ilett was a foil designer, as in... he came up with a new and very trick section to work for the application. Though I did read a post from the Swiss 18 guys who said that Ilett came up with the foils that would work for their boat. If Ilet figured the span and the lift surface required for that boat, then he is, indeed, a foil designer and you need to drop the pretense as to his limitations. I'm of the opinion that Ilett is a far smarter guy than you are willing to acknowledge. My argument is simple in its precision, Doug... those were Ilett's foils and this new device is Howes'.
There's a lot to be learned yet about this Tomahawk thing, not the least of which is how these foils do in a side by side against the best foilers out there with the standard foil stuff. If existing foil boats routinely wax the guys riding the Tomahawk units, then the whole thing goes Kablooey! as a competitive product for racing. It may have applications for recreational purposes if that does happen, but the racing end will be cooked until John develops something else.
You notice in Howes' explanation of the benefits and drawbacks of his design, he said that his foil would lose something on certain sailing angles and probably gain something on others. How that plays-out on the water in real conditions is the telling element.
There's no free lunch in design, Doug.
Maybe. You might want to keep your hyperbole hat on a while longer so that all this can have some time to shake itself out before you start in with "the greatest thing since edible panties" stuff. Howes is smart guy, to be sure, but that's not a ticket to paradise in the sailing world. When we see just what these foils can and can not do in real world applications where sailors with a wide latitude of skill levels will be doing all sorts of nasty stuff to them; Then we'll get an idea as to where they will reside in this carnival show known as foiling... and not until.
The comments, Douglas, are interpreted by you in that fashion because you do not have the ability to see beyond your limited capacity when it comes to looking at the functional value and the functional connections of something in this foiling world.
There's only one way in which you will get me to change my mind about you and your endless self-flagellation over foiling.... go to your garage, get your boat built, show progress photos of the project as you take it along the path of the build and then..... video tape and shoot still photos of the effort the first time it goes on the water. Then, have the stones to show the tape to anyone and everyone in the foiling community without editing the clip for your benefit. Youtube works for just about everyone and if you need help posting your video work, let me know. If the boat works, it will speak for itself. If it doesn't, then I suspect it will have a quieting effect on you and your boisterous manner. At least it should do that.
If your boat works, I'll be one of the first to publicly congratulate you on your effort. If it doesn't, then pretty much all of your cred goes right out the window and you will take your place with all the rest of the thoroughly humbled folk who have gone before you. You can feel free to ask as to how I know of that process anytime that you want to be a regular guy. I've got nothing to hide. It's all out there for anyone to see.
So, there's the challenge, Douglas. Complete this thing of yours which has dragged-on for what... three years now? Bring it out for all of us to see and speak to the build process and answer, with kindness, all the questions no matter how tedious.
Now, why do I have this creeping feeling that you will try to ignore the challenge I just dropped in front of you?
Clearly you mistake my intentions, Douglas. There's nothing silly at all regarding my statement. You did gush uncontrollably about Ilett and his breakthrough foils for Moths. You did go on, ad nauseum, about being able to jump a Moth foiler as a necessary function for a really great foiling boat. Anyone on this list, if they have the time and the inclination, can look up all your past posts on the matter and it's all right there.
When you first got your teeth into the gristle of this jumping folly, Ilett's foils were the only game in town that had the routine production strength required to hold up for hard core Moth sailing. By the simplest association, that means that you were very much into the foils being produced by Ilett as the foils of choice for jumping. You can't refute this point and it is the center of the argument I presented. So what, I ask, is ridiculous, when it is documented already from your own mouth (keyboard)?
Nothing in my comment intimated that Ilett was a foil designer, as in... he came up with a new and very trick section to work for the application. Though I did read a post from the Swiss 18 guys who said that Ilett came up with the foils that would work for their boat. If Ilet figured the span and the lift surface required for that boat, then he is, indeed, a foil designer and you need to drop the pretense as to his limitations. I'm of the opinion that Ilett is a far smarter guy than you are willing to acknowledge. My argument is simple in its precision, Doug... those were Ilett's foils and this new device is Howes'.
There's a lot to be learned yet about this Tomahawk thing, not the least of which is how these foils do in a side by side against the best foilers out there with the standard foil stuff. If existing foil boats routinely wax the guys riding the Tomahawk units, then the whole thing goes Kablooey! as a competitive product for racing. It may have applications for recreational purposes if that does happen, but the racing end will be cooked until John develops something else.
You notice in Howes' explanation of the benefits and drawbacks of his design, he said that his foil would lose something on certain sailing angles and probably gain something on others. How that plays-out on the water in real conditions is the telling element.
There's no free lunch in design, Doug.
Maybe. You might want to keep your hyperbole hat on a while longer so that all this can have some time to shake itself out before you start in with "the greatest thing since edible panties" stuff. Howes is smart guy, to be sure, but that's not a ticket to paradise in the sailing world. When we see just what these foils can and can not do in real world applications where sailors with a wide latitude of skill levels will be doing all sorts of nasty stuff to them; Then we'll get an idea as to where they will reside in this carnival show known as foiling... and not until.
The comments, Douglas, are interpreted by you in that fashion because you do not have the ability to see beyond your limited capacity when it comes to looking at the functional value and the functional connections of something in this foiling world.
There's only one way in which you will get me to change my mind about you and your endless self-flagellation over foiling.... go to your garage, get your boat built, show progress photos of the project as you take it along the path of the build and then..... video tape and shoot still photos of the effort the first time it goes on the water. Then, have the stones to show the tape to anyone and everyone in the foiling community without editing the clip for your benefit. Youtube works for just about everyone and if you need help posting your video work, let me know. If the boat works, it will speak for itself. If it doesn't, then I suspect it will have a quieting effect on you and your boisterous manner. At least it should do that.
If your boat works, I'll be one of the first to publicly congratulate you on your effort. If it doesn't, then pretty much all of your cred goes right out the window and you will take your place with all the rest of the thoroughly humbled folk who have gone before you. You can feel free to ask as to how I know of that process anytime that you want to be a regular guy. I've got nothing to hide. It's all out there for anyone to see.
So, there's the challenge, Douglas. Complete this thing of yours which has dragged-on for what... three years now? Bring it out for all of us to see and speak to the build process and answer, with kindness, all the questions no matter how tedious.
Now, why do I have this creeping feeling that you will try to ignore the challenge I just dropped in front of you?
D
Doug Lord
Guest
Who me?
Nice try on changing the subject,Ostlind-you have no clue what you are talking about whether it concerns me or the"foiling world". Give it up.....
Nice try on changing the subject,Ostlind-you have no clue what you are talking about whether it concerns me or the"foiling world". Give it up.....
Chris Ostlind
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Well, now.... there you have it. Douglas performs exactly as predicted.
Please read the post again, Douglas. Each and every one of your points were addressed. Your comeback.... well, there really wasn't one, now, was there? Why are you so afraid to engage? On the "What Is This Cat?" thread you also ran away from offering-up anything of substance. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/what-cat-26483.html
Gary Baigent produced his argument in that thread and did a truly fine job of presenting his points, while you just whined some more.
Any time you feel up to the legitimacy challenge that is before you, just let us know.
Chris Ostlind
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Just In from Bora Gulari
This quote has been openly nabbed from the pages of Sailing Anarchy.
Posted by bgulari
QUOTE (Doug Lord @ Mar 19 2009, 08:55 AM)
... but what Jon Howes has done is provide an extraordinary foil design that may do more for bi-foiler technology than anything since its inception in the late nineties. Whether jumping foilers ever lead to anything or not I'm convinced now that Jons foil has solved many of the issues confronting the viability of jumping. And more than that the Tomahawk foil may change foiling forever by making it easier and simpler and less expensive than was possible until now. Way to go Jon!
Bora's response at 12:45 this afternoon
"I heard from someone over the pond that the boat does not go upwind all that well. Which does not seem to be that surprising since they are sacrificing L/D for lack of a wand"
Remarkable, when one considers that Bora is one of the best foilers in the US and the world.
This quote has been openly nabbed from the pages of Sailing Anarchy.
Posted by bgulari
QUOTE (Doug Lord @ Mar 19 2009, 08:55 AM)
... but what Jon Howes has done is provide an extraordinary foil design that may do more for bi-foiler technology than anything since its inception in the late nineties. Whether jumping foilers ever lead to anything or not I'm convinced now that Jons foil has solved many of the issues confronting the viability of jumping. And more than that the Tomahawk foil may change foiling forever by making it easier and simpler and less expensive than was possible until now. Way to go Jon!
Bora's response at 12:45 this afternoon
"I heard from someone over the pond that the boat does not go upwind all that well. Which does not seem to be that surprising since they are sacrificing L/D for lack of a wand"
Remarkable, when one considers that Bora is one of the best foilers in the US and the world.
wet feet
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I'm a bit wary of stepping into the crossfire in this now traditional ritual,but to get back to the Tomahawk at the centre of the thread.I find it none too surprising that the boat could be deficient in windward performance given the very modest size of the daggerboard.It's only the immersed part of the board that can contribute to the resistance to leeway and it is axiomatic that the higher a foiler flies,the less lateral plane remains.I suppose another side effect is the increasing level of windage as more of the hull is exposed.Perhaps a new board with a bit more below the lifting foil might not be a big job.Given the depth of knowledge of the development team I would expect a solution to be forthcoming fairly soon.
Chris Ostlind
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I agree with you, Wet. The team at work on this is pretty clever and I have no doubt that they will effect an improvement strategy now that they have this first version up and going.
I do think that there are probably some inherent giveaways in the design approach that may be difficult to overcome, but hey... that's design. You gotta give some to get some.
What is problematic, is the relentless hype that seems to crop up whenever we see a new approach. All of the fuzz, mind you, is coming with but precious limited testing and probably some distance from what will actually be the final product.
It's just too early to know how it will all shake out and pronouncements of the Second Coming are... let's just say that they are rather premature.
I do think that there are probably some inherent giveaways in the design approach that may be difficult to overcome, but hey... that's design. You gotta give some to get some.
What is problematic, is the relentless hype that seems to crop up whenever we see a new approach. All of the fuzz, mind you, is coming with but precious limited testing and probably some distance from what will actually be the final product.
It's just too early to know how it will all shake out and pronouncements of the Second Coming are... let's just say that they are rather premature.
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