TKO Electric / Solar Concept

Just a few issues...

1) as far as I could tell they only have one boat in production.
2) that boat is a 30'x10' pontoon boat with a rated capacity of 30 people!
3) It has 12 6v batteries giving a max range of 50 miles (no indicator of speed for this)
4) top speed of 8kn, and a cruise of 6.5 (no indication of range at cruise
5) Uses a gas generator for extra power


The loon you mention they don't even have a press picture of. It is for now a design drawing, despite having gone into production in 2011.

And no one is doubting that all electric boats can be built. But they are very marginal craft with restricted operating profiles. If your demands happen to fall within what they can do, great.

But to my knowledge no one has ever built a planing electric boat. At least not one with a range of more than a mile. I could be wrong but I doubt it. The energy density isn't there. You just can't store enough power on a boat in batteries to drive one at planing speeds.

 

TK, are you trying to say that you are involved with the tamarac electric boats, or are you just using their data to convince everyone that your ideas are valid? They look like nice enough boats for their given purpose, but there is no mention on their website of any kind of re-generation, which is what you propose above.
I notice that the green datasheet attached to your diagram above is reproduced from their brochure.

Unless I am mistaken, you should perhaps edit your post above to say it is proof of their concept, not yours. Your original picture suggests only a tiny percentage of the available area for solar panels they use, let alone room for the storage capacity you will need for any kind of usefull operation.

Perhaps you could expand on what you are trying to achieve with this thread. Are you looking for advice, investment, just letting us know what you can do, or trying to get someone to endorse your ideas??

 

I am not with Tamerack - and I should say their proof of concept, not mine

Yes my idea does augment theirs

I started thinking in the direction of solar, and am now on a different path

TKO

 

Jeremy, Daquiri, Stumble, and all the rest of you guys, You have displayed outstanding patience with TKO. He seems determined to place his confidence in cheap advertising claims to support a pipe dream. That, in spite of most learned council. You are to be commended for your forebearance.

The forum is sprinkled with original posts by tyros with an idea, revolutionary design, or brilliant invention, many, even most, of which will not work. They do not, can not, have any idea of the enormous collective intellect assembled here. And you provide learned advice and council for free. (sigh)

 

TKO Electric self Generator system VIDEO

Please see test bench run ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv53K9MnDuM&feature=related

For all of those who said it could not be done - I guess you needed to see it for yourself.

1. Start up the system using AC or Battery Power
2. Once it is started the system will SELF run until you cut the power from the generator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv53K9MnDuM&feature=related

3. My design augments this principle, with (6) PMAs that put our 1000 KW each

4. The system can run 2 rather large electric motors, and all power to the boat

Please see test bench run ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv53K9MnDuM&feature=related

 

Lol you are using an example of a perpetual motion machine from a religious institution (WITTS the publisher of the video stands for World Improvement Through The Spirit Ministries) as proof of your science?

All they require is a $200 donation for a hours worth of time with their engineers and they will tell you how they do it. They also have the following for sale.

Mechanical energy motors that need no input once started and can be built to run any load.

Anti-gravity machines that can travel as easiily through outer space as through air. These can also be built to travel through water (oceans), and even through solid earth.
This former mechanism can be built as a device that is pedal operated (like a bicycle) and is able to fly through the air with no motor, wings, or propellers.

Sky Well technology extracting thousands or millions of gallons of clean water from the air.

Atmospheric scrubbers to transform carbon dioxide and methane into breathable oxygen and helpful base elements.

Ocean water desalinization. Transform thousands of gallons an hour into usable fresh water for agriculture, etc.

Growing centers to make tons and tons of fresh produce. Vegetables with 10 fold increase in protein and enhanced nutrition.

Transmutation of basic elements, derived from the quantum field.

Any one of these could be immediately commercialized for incredible profits, or if they wanted to help people donate the money or patents to humanity. But none of them have every come to market.


Sir, you are either a scammer, or have been taken in by a scammer. Either way there is no further statement that need be said about this. Perpetual motion doesn't work, and saying its all because of "quantum" (WITTS claim) is nothing more than 21st century snake oil.

 

http://www.tamarackelectricboats.com/ is the link you sent, IT DOES NOT USE regeneration, The motor is Torqeedo (I came close to fitting Torqeedo-4000R just days after the release of that model on my boat, but the systems lacked engineering maturity then - for continuous use... They are still not sufficient for continuous offshore use... Torqeedo are excellent for bringing your boat alongside after a pleasant days sailing... or pottering around quiet lakes and creeks... There is a delightful little electric cruiser in the boatyard where I am... It has a very significant bank of LiFePO4 batteries and complex individual cell monitoring systems, He charges the batteries off the mains, before launch... The boat potters around very nicely at 4 knots and top cruise is 6 knots... I do not know the endurance ... These units do NOT deliver regenerative power...

Your link at best would have maybe 5 x 200 watt 24 VDC panels NOT enough for half voltage and quarter power as the Torqeedo-4000R draws 4000W at 48 VDC at peak power... to deliver initial torque near to a 9hp petrol OB

I had bought the genset (produced 6000 watts at 48 VDC regulated to charge AGM batteries, as I did not trust the LiFePO4 battery technology then (about 3 ~ 4 years ago)... I still have 8 of the 13 PV panels to deliver electricity to charge the ships House bank at 24 volts via a PL-60 regulator that can manage and handle 60A charge rate from PV panels...

Apart from PV-panels and Internal-Combustion-powered-engine-driven-generators and trickle-charge-wind-turbines, - - most other forms of REGEN is PIE IN THE SKY when applied to BOATS... DO YOUR HOMEWORK, BUILD A WORKING MODEL - Prove its performance with an endurance trial externally supervised and verifiable.. UNTIL THEN be polite do your research and learn what is possible and what is BS...

 

It seems to me that we have a few basic issues here.

- Firstly, TKO seems to be under the delusion that you can get more power out of a system than you put in, so defying the law of conservation of energy (or the first law of thermodynamics if you prefer that way of expressing it).

- Secondly, the requirement and spec of the proposed design seems to be changing by the day, making it difficult to see what the objective is. We started with a artistic rendering of a small boat that was to be solar powered, yet now seem to have moved on to a boat powered by a perpetual motion machine.................

- Finally,I doubt this is a real project at all, and suspect it's either something intended to waste the time of those here prepared to offer good advice, or it's the result of someone with a delusional personality. The boat won't get built, and if it does it's pretty obvious that it isn't going to perform as intended.

I'd advise folk following this thread to check out the OP, here: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/tom-knutson/4/a31/855, here: http://tkousa.tripod.com/ and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_W._Knutson and draw their own conclusion as to the probability of this being a viable and sound project.

 

No need to check those websites, Jeremy. The short post #65 tells more than tons of webpages.

Unfortunately, it took us 5 pages to realize we are dealing with a technically ignorant person - which is not a sin or a guilt. But stubbornly wanting to remain ignorant, or even trying to convince the others to become ignorant - that, in my eyes, is a guilt.

I'm out of this, cheers to all.

 

PMA = Permanent Magnet Alternator Design

The boat is 21 feet long, 7-4 wide, 3 feet deep, 5 passenger. A similar model is 30 ft with a V8 engine ( thus we know the design can hold the wight)

1) It is very easy to start a 3 hp Electric Motor with a battery back. When placed beside a PMA. the two can be connected by electric wires, as well as a sprocket and pulley system. One of the PMA wires will drive the 3 HP, when it turns it will also turn the sprocket which will turn the PMA ... shut off the battery that started the system running, and both will run continuously for many hours. The product we use in our test bench is: Baldor EL30606T, 3HP,3450RPM,1PH,60HZ,182T,3634LC,TEFC,F1, 77 lbs. We paid $990 for the one we bought.

2) PMA (from a WIND GENERATOR system designed to run a home) By definition, a Permanent Magnet Alternator is an Alternator that uses moving permanent magnets instead of Electromagnets to induce current in coils of wire. Stop wasting up to 50% of your power energizing the coil of standard brush type alternators that increase the strain on your motor as your power requirements increase. Use powerful permanent magnet alternators (PMA's) to make cheap electricity for your system. A $299 PMA can create over 1000 Kw as their output is virtually unlimited - see performance chart attached. Permanent magnet alternators are by no means standard "Automotive" alternators containing brushes and electro-magnetic coils. A PMA does not waste power by having to continuously create an energy intensive magnetic field. PMA we are using was designed to charge batteries, and run 120 Volt house systems (you have one 120 VOLT plug) . ((PLEASE NOTE: Since these are belt driven the PMA can be run in a line, thus one 3 HP electric motor can run more than one PMA.)) For the PMA we are using please see LINK: http://www.windbluepower.com/Permanent_Magnet_Alternator_Wind_Blue_Low_Wind_p/dc-540.htm

3) Now that you have these running side by side via the BELT DRIVE, shut off the battery that started the system. The motor turning is driving the PMA, and one of the electrical leads from the PMA is connected to the motor. In effect you have created a small self generating system. The batteries are not used from this point on. Until you want to start the system again.

4) At the back of the PMA is another lead that is generating DC power. We are using the AIMS Inverter: Model #: pwrinv500012w which is 16 lbs, and is very efficient. The one we bought was $399.
Specifications
Continuous output power: 5000 Watts
Surge power capability (peak power): 10,000 Watts
dc input / operating voltage: 10 to 15 Volts
Output voltage: 120 Volts ac +/- 10%
Output wave form: modified sine wave with phase correction
Output frequency: 60 Hz +/- 1 Hz
Battery low voltage alarm: 10.5 +/- 0.5 Volts
Battery low voltage shutdown: 10.0 +/- 0.5 Volts
No load current: < 0.6 Amps
Full load efficiency: 90%
1/3 load efficiency: 95%
No load minimum operating temperature: -15 degrees Celsius
Full load maximum operating temperature: 55 +/- 5 degrees Celsius (automatic shutdown)
AC Output Socket Type: quadruple Type 2 -3 prong
High input voltage protection: 15V-17V
Low input voltage shutdown: 10V
Internal fuse protection
Product size (L x W x H): 17”X 7.75”X 6”
Weight: unit 18 lbs boxed 20 lbs
UL maximum recommended per outlet 1500W

5) Now we can plug the system into any AC Motor applicable to drive the boat. Baldor makes many fine motors, but since this is a small boat, lets limit that HP to 100. (EM2550T) 100 Hp, 230/460 Vac, 3 Phase, 365TS Frame,3600 Rpm,ODP Catalog Number: EM2550T Specification Number: 42F098W461G1 Horsepower: 100 Voltage: 230/460 Hertz: 60 Phase: 3 Full Load Amps: 218/109 Usable at 208 Volts: N/A RPM: 3540 Frame Size: 365TS Service Factor: 1.15 Rating: 40C AMB-CONT Locked Rotor Code: G NEMA Design Code: B Insulation Class: F Full Load Efficiency: 94.5 Power Factor: 91 Enclosure: OPSB Baldor Type: 4264M DE Bearing: 6313 ODE Bearing: 6311 Electrical Specification Number: 42WGW461 Mechanical Specification Number: 42F98 Base: RG Mounting: F1

 

But where is your energy coming from?

You've described a machine where the power output is greater than the power input.

If you connect a 3 hp electric motor to a 3 hp PMA, then the power output would be around 2.4 hp, assuming 90% efficiency for both the motor and the PMA.

You cannot put less power into a system than you get out, it breaks the laws of physics. If this were possible then we'd all be driving around in electric cars that never needed recharging.

Please explain the following:

1. What is the power requirement to propel your boat?

2. How much energy storage (in kWh) do you have in your battery pack?

3. What is the endurance that you're aiming for at the power in point 1 above?

 

Ahh but that is the beauty of it -- Once the systems is started by batteries, you can turn off the battery power ant it will still run until you turn it off. The PMA has two outputs, one for the little motor, and one extra power. This PMA was designed as a WIND turbine to power house systems ... so ask yourself - what could you do with just one PMA / how would you use the extra power?

See VIDEO : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv53K9MnDuM&feature=related

 

Unfortunately that's completely false!

You cannot, ever, no matter what you do, what machine you use, get more power out of a system than you put in. It's simply physically impossible.

It'd be like starting to move a car up a hill with the engine and then putting it in neutral and using the power from the rolling wheels to continue to push it up the hill - it simply won't work, as the power has to come from somewhere.

Generators, even high efficiency permanent magnet alternators, are only devices for converting one form of power, mechanical, into two other sorts of power, electrical and waste heat. Even the best will waste about 10% of the mechanical input power as heat. They do not "manufacture" extra power from somewhere.

If you had an electric motor that was being driven by 1000 watts of electrical power from a battery. It might be able to output 900 watts of mechanical power and waste 100 watts as heat from the windings if it was 90% efficient.

You can split this 900 watts how you like, between driving the propeller or driving a PMA. Let's say you decided to split the power 50/50, so 450 watts of mechanical power drives the PMA and 450 watts drives the propeller.

A very high efficiency PMA might be 90% efficient, so the 450 watts of mechanical power at its input would give about 405 watts of electrical power back to the battery and waste about 45 watts as heat.

The battery would only be able to convert about 80% of the 405 watts of charge power to useful output (because of inherent losses in the battery) so you would effectively be getting about 324 watts of useful power back.

Looking at the whole power equation we have 1000 watts of electrical power being taken from the battery, 450 watts of mechanical power being delivered to the propeller, 324 watts of useful power being returned to the battery and 226 watts being wasted as heat and charging losses.

The real power input therefore becomes 1000 watts - 324 watts - 676 watts and the power output would be 450 watts of mechanical power to the propeller, with 226 watts wasted as heat and charging losses.

In percentage terms, you would be getting a useful power output of about 66% of the input, which is far worse than if you used the motor to drive the propeller directly, without the useless PMA.

 

So in short - you do not believe what you are seeing on the Video ... I guess I am left to my own devices until I build the boat and give you a ride. "That which has not been discovered by others requires proof for them to become true believers." ---Albert Einstein

 

Even Albert Einstein recognised the inviolable principle of conservation of energy!

The video is fake, pure and simple, but go ahead and try to replicate it to prove it to yourself (or just read up on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy).