Tjalk - Sailing Dutch barge

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by valery gaulin, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    I don't think you have to be too worried about the ballast. I would be more worried about the control of the rudder. Some Hollanders have some pretty heavy muzzles. Nice, when you have sunny days, but what about some strong winds with rain. I would consider some mechanism for that part. In the production from the photo's it looks like they use red oxide paint. I assume some high quality finish paint is then used for the final product.
    I doubt it that they paint the boat every year. You need to email some of the skippers and compliment them on their beautifully boat. Ask them how they maintain their metal boats or ask the boatbuilder what the cost is for the plans and maintenance. Bert
     
  2. valery gaulin
    Joined: Jan 2017
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    Location: Montréal

    valery gaulin Senior Member

    Building material option for a Lemsteraak:

    Wood with epoxy impregnation on the outside only and for below the waterline tar coated covered with cooper sheet (1mm- 2mm thick). No more maintenance, abrasion resistance, for beaching, anti fouling material, cooper being in the bottom would also help for lower center of gravity. Wood is also an excellent natural insulator and it floats.

    Now what type of wood? Plywood exterior grade, Plywood pressure treated, Cedar stip??? Any other idea?
     
  3. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Some time ago, the Dutch has developed a method to make pine wood, one of the cheapest and most available wood in the world, processed under pressure or in vacuum, can't remember what the article said, with vinegar and it was suitable for sea and rough environmental treatment. Also they stated, it was used for boat building and it last a lifetime. Maybe you can find out more about it. I personally would make it from French plywood. It has 0.45 SWG, i.e it floats nicely. I would get an heavier engine in the belly for lowering center of gravity. Or oak wood, good for the center of gravety. But Valery, you need a better advice from the builders of those type of boats, then from me. Get yourself a copy of "Spiegel der Zeilvaart" issue April 2016 for Euro 4.95 or the one from February 2017. Bert
     
  4. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Thanks for the links. The article makes clear on thing that had been puzzling me. Early on in the video the X is clearer higher and faster upwind, but the video shows the Aak not too far behind at the mark. The article says that there was a windshift after the start that allowed both boats to make the mark without tacking, which obviously meant that the X Yacht lost most of the advantage it had gained through superior pointing.

    Given that one boat was 25% longer than the other and carries almost twice as much sail, it's not surprising that the bigger boat had similar top speed in conditions where both boats would have been pretty limited by hull speed. Given lighter winds, surfing conditions or a tighter course, the modern boat would be even further ahead.

    None of this is to dispute that the Aak is a fine craft built for a very different purpose. I'd love to go and have a sail on one of them.
     
  5. valery gaulin
    Joined: Jan 2017
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    Location: Montréal

    valery gaulin Senior Member

    Thank you Bertku for the info. Actually if I ever get to the point of actually really building a Lemsteraak I would get a plan from a professionnal designer that specialise in these kind of Yacht.

    Right now, I talk and I dream about these boats because I am amazed at the features these boats have. They basically have all my wants!!!

    Someone mention in a comment above that the tiller is probably heavy, I actually thought the same thing! My solution while thinkjnh about it was to actually balance the rudder. Basically I am more inclined at using a submersible type of electric propulsion that would be integrated in the rudder with the propeller at the end of the rudder. It would help alot for port maneuvrability to be able to steer with the propeller on the rudder. Anyway by having this setup there is no need for the rudder to be chop for the place of the shaft and propeller from an traditonal inboard arrangement. This way the rudder could be filling that empty spot all the way to the keel and it would make it a balanced rudder. It will for sure help to reduce the muscle needed to steer these type of boat without going for the wheel arrangement.
     
  6. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    -
    The X won the first two races of a ‘‘best of three’’ so the third race wasn't sailed. The article tells about the two sailed races. From the article's text PDF and looking at the video I think the first part of the video shows the start of the first race and also the top mark rounding in the first race, and then at the end of the video the finish of second race, but I'm not sure as it nowhere tells which part of the video shows which part of the two sailed races, also the video and the article don't provide any intermediate times at the marks, and not even total elapsed times of each race, and also not the distances between the marks, respect for both teams though, the Aak became second, and the X second to last . . :idea: ;) :cool:

    From the article: - | - Jan de Vries (X-40) Eala - | - Dirk Blom (Aak - Lemsteraak) Warber - |

    Note: ‘‘Hylpers’’ in the quote is a Frisian word for the Dutch word ‘‘Hindeloopers’’ which is ‘‘people from Hindeloopen / Hindeloopers’’ in English, which is the Aak's team here.

    ‘‘Warber’’ is a Frisian word for: ‘‘ active - diligent - assiduous - industrious - efficacious - hardworking - zealous - bustling - eager - painstaking - busy ’’


    . . . . as far as I understand Frisian & English . . ;)

     
  7. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Yes it was me who mentioned that the rudder is muzzle work. Why don't you plan a nice holiday trip to Holland and hire a traditional sail ship from www.jachtwerfdezeeg.nl or from www.sailchartersneek.nl the latter one has lemsteraken, vissermanaken etc from 2 to 12 people. Born in Rotterdam millions of years ago, I normally fly twice per year to Europe and then stay in the Kaag dorp and hire for a few hours a boat or yacht there. Yes indeed I also have placed my electric propulsion in the rudder of my electric boat. Good system. Valery, nothing wrong with dreaming. Bert
     
  8. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Maritiem Digitaal [​IMG] is a Joint Database of some Maritime Museums in the Netherlands.

    Among other things, they have about 4,000 plan sheets online there, among the ca. 121,000 drawing info I saw there . . :eek:

    The boat at the bottom of post #6 could be there compleet, if you can't find it I'll take a shot at it, when I have time . . :rolleyes:

    Some rough shots already ---> VA 18 - De Groene Draeck - of Bea - the former Dutch Queen -

    Groene Draeck =306 results - Groene Draeck need images = 105 results - Groene Draeck need plans = 30 results - Groene Draeck need plan drawings = 30 results

    - see the search box in the upper right corner for the Dutch search term I've used there -

    You can drag out big images there, for example ---> W 10,000 x H 7,168 pixels.

    Will answer the question about ballast in more detail later, when I have more time, for starters Lemsteraken do have a lot of build in ballast nowadays, since they don't have to carry a shipload of fish home anymore, carrying ballast has much improved them . . :idea:

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    P.S. - Edit - added: - Adaptation of the picture size goes here as follows, see below the URL of the shown picture in the quote, which shows up as W 1,000 x H 716 pixels.

    http://mmr.adlibhosting.com/madigopacx/wwwopac.ashx?command=getcontent&server=Maritime&value=fsm%2Ffsm_213%5Cfsm-1999-244-b%2Ejpg&height=1000&width=1000

    Adaptation of the picture's size here: set both red numbers in the same value of the desired width, max is 15000 or so, which gives a picture of W 15,000 x H 10,752 pixels.

    Note: the picture is blown up this way, and thus becomes blurred when too much bloated, like in the last example, and moreover, the image then becomes kinda unstable, at least for me. So max about 1800 works fine for me in this case, one and another of course in the first place dependent on the quality of the image as found . . :idea:
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  9. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Note about the above Maritiem Digitaal links, just saw there's a button for English, approx at the upper right and bottom right of the webpages . . :cool:

    [​IMG]

    But beware, there could be less info available in English, as this is often the case when foreign languages are offered . . :idea:​
     
  10. valery gaulin
    Joined: Jan 2017
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    Location: Montréal

    valery gaulin Senior Member

    Wow this is awsome, thank you so much! There is so much information in this Maritime museum. I can't believe how much wealth and informations the Nehterland is keeping in this meseum. Such a rich naval history, I am so amazed.

    Thank you very much for taking time to share this info.
     

  11. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 1,622
    Likes: 129, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

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