the vector fin proa

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by fritz roth, Dec 13, 2006.

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  1. fritz roth
    Joined: Dec 2006
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    fritz roth Junior Member

    new developments

    .

    ........ all the irrelevant remarks here .......

    I will just for now iqnore
    because if any one has nothing better do to >

    > its a waste of time to answer <


    but at > http://www.proadesign.com
    a couple of new developments have come about since >

    >> first > a 96' >> 30 ktn tourist vfp
    for up to 30 passenger >

    for a tourist operator in central america !

    >> second > a 8' boa x 27' loa hinged vf proa !
    you can just as a hobie launch and trailor
    but having two bunks and a lot more capability
    in bad weather !

    for more just visit the links on the site ........



    .
     
  2. proabum
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    proabum Junior Member

    Funny Cigarettes

    Oh, yeah, I forgot.......I'm a retired cop and sometimes I forget:). I saw some designs that Fritz Roth did, on a website, and he seems very compitent and outside the box. I respect that, even if he stretches other envelopes inhis written stuff. Besides the money career as a criminal investigator, I have always been an artist and look at proas as a historical piece of living art and look forward to the day when my rigging and outfitting will be finished so I can paint what I want on the sails and bow.

    I have looked at several sail types and believe I will go with a modified bat wing, single sail. Being new at sailing, I don't want to complicate my learning curve with multiple wind planes to deal with.

    Some time ago, I saw where a guy was experimenting with an inverted wing design where the lift capability of an air craft wing was directed to pull a vessel. Have you seen any proa types with this wing configuration?
     
  3. proabum
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    proabum Junior Member

    I don't want to swap spit with you, but I think you are a genius.......a forward thinking individual who just articulates a little differently.........and it is kind of like poetry!
     
  4. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Here's a little something you may enjoy, then, if you think Fritz is borderline.
    The illustration attached below is a sailing Travel Canoe by Heinz-Juergen Sass from Sweden waaaay back in 1987. In the drawing, you can clearly see that Mr. Sass has employed a very nice foil to stabilize his craft while out on the water under sail.

    Does the idea look familiar to you?

    Before Fritz nabbed the concept out of thin air, some folks took to calling the form a Bruce foil. You can read about that variant here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_foil You can see that the Bruce foil was around well before Mr. Roth appeared as a person interested in boat design.

    Put it all together and Voila!... the vector fin proa. Is it new and significant? I'm sorry to say that it it is neither.

    Oooops! I had forgotten to include the image when I first posted the response. Here it is.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 23, 2007
  5. fritz roth
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    fritz roth Junior Member

    .


    ........ well ........... here we have >

    the same old " borderline syndrom "
    as all the others .......



    first of all >>

    take a look at the foil !
    its a simple straight plate
    not able to stabilize a craft automatically

    in any sea way !


    then its the usual one way craft !
    not able to have an analog computer type fin >

    > as the vfp <

    because only on a two way vessel
    can you have an angled fin >
    or a hinged fin >

    adjusting its force to the vector of the wind and wave forces !

    > on both directions <


    soooo ?

    who is here making propaganda ................. ?

    for the never ending stone age !








     
  6. fritz roth
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    fritz roth Junior Member

    the propaganda file !

    .


    ...... this " moderator " below >

    being such an enslaved mind !
    can not differentiate between who is attacking !

    and who is simply defending him self
    from all the hideuos propaganda
    being put forth by most every one >>>
    on his propaganda file ......

    meaning > he < is the problem !

    not some one
    not cherishing the insults

    to any inteligent mind ......




    ps ....... I just noticed .....

    there are some here ...... not inclined to defame !
    maybe even appreciate some new solutions !



    .

     
  7. fritz roth
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    fritz roth Junior Member

    .



    good day to all honest people !





     
  8. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Magnifico Mein Herr

    It must be tough
    standing there while

    the fury> of the entire world blows

    your face
    swept clean and you

    remain doing battle

    with but the simple

    elegant tool

    The VECTOR FIN of magificent proportions



    Yes, being the only one who believes is a mighty difficult place in this big bad world of ours. Have you presented your uber technik for proas to the German Multihulls discussion forum? Are you being received well there? And what happened to your Don Q/Sancho Panza act with Don Elliott? Did you guys slay all the windmills in sight?

    Come on Fritz. Knock-off the weirdo Euro-guy routine and start talking something like a normal guy.
     
  9. proabum
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    proabum Junior Member

    Know It Alls

    Those folks that act and talk like they know everything are very annoying to those of us that truly do!
     
  10. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    Chris; I too had some thought that related this thread to Cervantes tale.

    But maybe we had ought to cut this guy some slack. He seems truly convinced that he has discovered/invented something new or better. It is difficult to relinquish a strongly held opinion even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Once, in my youth, I invented the wheel and I was devastated to learn that someone else had already done so. Not only that but those damnable Firestone and Dunlop people had put tires on it. Imagine how disappointing it was to have ones' crowning achievment poo-poohed.

    So salty old curmudgeons like you and me can be generous by showing Fritz some sympathy, maybe even encouragement. He needs both.
     
  11. fritz roth
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    fritz roth Junior Member




    ........ I have no intention to getting imbezile as well !

    I will not even buy a windows vista
    or a 3 ghz pc

    because I will principly not compete
    with all the borderline cases an the planet .............



    .
     
  12. fritz roth
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    fritz roth Junior Member



    ......... you are quite right !

    you know ever thing about >

    >>>> pre historic times <<<<



    .
     
  13. fritz roth
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    fritz roth Junior Member




    ........ I would recommend ....
    having some sympathy for your selfs !

    because one day .......

    >>>> some vfp will jet by you <<<<

    and you .... will not even know what it was .........




    .
     
  14. rob denney
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    rob denney Senior Member

    G'day,

    Fritz and I have had this discussion on a number of lists and chat groups. He generally leaves with his knickers in a twist, or is thrown off. For the record, I think the vfp is a solution to stopping proas capsizing, but is not as good a solution, either structurally or in terms of performance or layout as having the crew and accommodation weight in the windward hull. It is not a Bruce Foil, as it relies on forward speed to generate downwards force, whereas a BF relies on leeway.

    I think the building method, rig and accommodation on Fritz' boats is rubbish, for reasons which I will go into if anyone other than Fritz wishes me too. Please have a look at his building instructions and drawings first and then ask pertinent questions.

    Specific answers to Fritz's comments follow. Conversations with Fritz rarely achieve anything, so after this reply I will be very selective about which of his answers I reply to. Any one who wants more detail, please ask.

    rob
    Extremely everything you say, including pricey.

    The reason for this is we build them as one offs. If Hobie were to build a one off Hobie 20, it would cost a lot more. If we were to build thousands, the cost would be the same as a Hobie. Amateur built, they are very cheap.

    Fritz
    ..... how can they be ?

    if the design is so critical >>> they need >
    > carbon fibers < to hold together .......

    or cant structurally be trusted
    to return to australia from south africa ?

    Elementarry is a 25' beach proa, not an ocean voyager. The carbon allows a lighter boat. It could be built in cheap or rubbish materials to save money, at added weight. The reverse of this applies to Fritz's .

    Fritz
    the elementary plan costs as much >
    as building a whole vfp in materials !

    of the same lenght .........

    Rob
    Plans are $Aus1,000/$US800. 5 sets have been sold. One small vfp has been built, nobody saw it or sailed it, apart from Fritz, who made some extreme claims about it which nobody verified. The pictures of the boat in a F8 looked like a F4. The claims of F12 in Gibralter Bay were rubbished by the Gib met office. Nobody weighed it, nobody raced or even sailed against it. Repeated requests by me and others to look at it have been refused, for increasingly inane reasons.

    Maybe a 25' vfp could be built for $1,000, if you scavenged enough materials. It would be nowhere near the quality of the cheaply built Elementarry, much less the professionally built one.

    Fritz....... the harry proa design >>>
    has no principle advantage in weight to a cat .........

    Rob
    This is nonsense. The 15m in the video weighs 3 tonnes/tons. The sports version 2.5. A cat of similar space would weigh and cost double this and not perform as well.

    F contrary to the vfp !
    R Until one is built, we will never know.

    F but on a vfp > its the design >
    making less displacement possible !
    meaning less $ .........

    R This is absurd. A vfp with usable accommodation anywhere near a Harry has never been designed, much less built. There is nothing in the design which implies it will be lighter, and many things which imply it will be heavier.

    Proabum. You may be right about Fritz. You are not the only one who thinks he is a genius with a communication problem. Don Eliot (arguably an even bigger clown), thinks so too. However, a sail on a few other boats, maybe some experience building one will soon put you off the idea. If it doesn't, please build one, so at least we can find out how they perform, and what they actually cost and weigh. I do suggest that you get some form of guarantee from Fritz that it will cost you $US800 before you start, if this is the basis for your purchase.

    regards,

    Rob
    www.harryproa.com
     

  15. naturewaterboy
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: key largo, florida, usa

    naturewaterboy Steel Drum Tuner

    Hello from Key Largo USA! I just found this thread...can I ask a question? Me and my skinny blonde girlfriend (weak arms but lots of other good assets) would like to build a proa, one optomized for use in the Florida Bay. Florida Bay is thousands of square miles of shallow (mostly one fathom or less) water with numerous flats and mangrove islands.

    Can everyone suggest what plans I can buy to built a proa that will:

    -be good for day use

    -shallow draft, less than 2 ft. - less than one ft. would be really sweet

    -have a small cabin for a potty (some girly girls must have), a place to wait out the weather, maybe enough room to lay down (to, how should I say, you know)

    -be light weight so that it can be pulled up onto a beach

    -able to be stored in a garage occasionally (in case of a hurricane)

    Any designs out there fit this description? Anyone out there built one of these?
     
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