The Slow Pace of Change

Inevitably the pioneers are the people that find the bugs.Maybe the people doing the marine conversions need to spend some time afloat or doing actual maintenance.I don't doubt that the original engines were developed to a very efficient level of performance in their original applications and it seems to need some additional development.
I have to agree that the sight of half a dozen giant outboards on a leisure boat is difficult to justify.A simpler,lighter boat might not be a huge sacrifice if the alternative is a transition to a rowing boat in a few decades.

I totally agree, and frankly, our transition to electric was partially because of a shortage of diesel on the island at the time (COVID related supply chains), reports of coming diesel shortages, and the waiting time for a new diesel engine was a 1.5 years (sic).

Our logic was centered was whether there’d be enough diesel within the years we have left to go sailing, and what would the difference be between idling @ 5 knots to stretch fuel, or doing 5 knots electric- plus the 3gm Yanmar engine and outdrive were shot & we have a low ish prismatic (simple & light, as you pointed out above) hull designed for crisp light winds.

A coming shock will be what to do with hulls that need mass horsepower to go anywhere, and what happens to consumer's at that moment? (Although I think the Raid movement / R2AK can be looked upon as leading edge indicators/reaction?). Using old hulls as housing units has worked - kind of like shipping cube architecture, and fiberglass boats seem to have a half life of a thousand years, so, dirt marinas?
 
Jared Diamond, who won the Pulitzer Prize for his book Guns Germs and Steel, also wrote one called Collapse. About societies or nations or civilizations who destroyed themselves. Most fascinating was the Easter Island civilization who completely deforested their home for beams and poles to shift their statues: status symbols for their hereditary leaders. Once the trees were gone they couldn't make make dugout canoes to reach their fishing grounds anymore so they were stuck with agriculture. But without trees all the soil blew away. So then they had wars between communities for control of the remaining agriculture. Until that blew away. Then they had wars to kill the enemy to eat them. Those were the good days because the wars after that were for control of the enemy land so that they could dig up and eat their ancestors, after they had eaten the casualties. Good times. Those folks were as smart as we are. We buy 300hp Teslas in areas where the grid is fossil fuel powered and congratulate ourselves on our ethical superiority. I hope we pass through the eye of the needle in front of us. But I'm not confident.
 
There's a lot more pissed-off farmers than fishermen. Same basic problem - the computer can't be overridden with many codes - it just shuts down - and you are stuck in a field with a tractor and trailer full of produce and can't get it even 1 mile back to the yard. Dealer might show up in three days, look at the thing, order some parts - and return in a couple weeks to fix some temp or pressure sensor on the particle filter. Only an authorized dealer service tech can re-enable the engine. You generally get a bill for a couple of grand. Last time I looked the part up and I could buy it on Amazon for $23. But I couldn't reset the engine without the dealer service guy. (I'm an equipment mechanic at a golf course.)

Compare to commercial aircraft that have this level of electronic intervention between pilot and engines. They have at least four computers for redundancy. And they have a whole cascade of gradually reducing software proggies to make sure even if a sensor wigs out, you can use a simpler control model that still works but doesn't use many of the nice-to-have features. For safety at sea, SOLAS et al need to look at the provisions in the aircraft specifications. Limp mode needs to be progressive - dropping feedback dependencies and eventually checking out and turning the control directly the skipper. The farmer, at least, can walk back to the barn.
 
If oil went to $2000 a barrel overnight we'd see some functional electric boats by the end of the month.
"Incentive is the mother of invention."
This entire topic has become strongly polarized (like so many issues of the day).
I find it discouraging and disappointing.
So it goes.
 
If oil went to $2000 a barrel overnight we'd see some functional electric boats by the end of the month.
"Incentive is the mother of invention."
This entire topic has become strongly polarized (like so many issues of the day).
I find it discouraging and disappointing.
So it goes.

It's only been polarized by a small but loudly screaming bunch of pie-in-the-sky dreamers who envision a perfect world where everyone eats only plants, is happy with nothing, and all the deer jump for joy and the fish all wear diapers so the water stays clean. :rolleyes:
The last time I checked there were ~3,000 different products/compounds made from oil.
Virtually everything in today's world uses those products for the production of most anything your eyes can see and hundreds more you can't see.
If oil reached 1/4th of that amount whole economic sectors would collapse, if it reached 1/2 of that whole countries would collapse.
Long before it reached the price that you envision countries would be at war, real war, not the "He shot a missile at us, so I'll shoot one back".
Right now, about 89% of all the plastics flowing into the Pacific come from a swath that starts in East Africa, crosses India and Southeast Asia into Southern China.
But people in San Francisco can't have a plastic straw? What is that about? It's about gross stupidity, (if it feels good do it,) the mindless ordering the brainless to "Do something".
China wants to commission additional coal plants at the rate of one a week, India is not far behind.
About 75% of the new babies born come from that swath I described above, meanwhile the Western countries are not reproducing themselves.
It's interesting that those who rant and rave the most about oil are the ones who have the most to lose.
Do you want the Western world to return to the lifestyle of those in Southeast Africa?
Perhaps we should return to a time before the Industrial Revolution, when 80% of the population was engaged in agriculture, (without tractors or fertilizer)?
I'm sorry, those who have become indoctrinated into the Greta Cult have the brains of a fence post.
If people, (actually those at the "top" in the world,) were really interested in "helping" those at the bottom they would make oil and all forms of energy as cheap as possible.
But they're not,,,, they don't want to.
 
Its definitely a difficult task to convince people that just because they are able to afford six big outboards to fit on their transom and the fuel to run them that it is a good or responsible use of resources.The difficulty is that with no evidence of restraint or moderation,others will have a sense of entitlement too.I totally understand the frustration of having to overcome software that prevents unauthorised access to systems but that surely is a two way street if the software prevents an engine running in a condition where it will damage itself and cause harm to the maker's reputation.Engine efficiency has been improving for a long time but some aspects don't leave much margin for things to go wrong.As for the pace of change,it wasn't so many years ago that at least one quite common airliner had a cockpit computer running Windows 3.In the boating world it is incumbent on us to build boats using sustainable resources and to improve the efficiency of the hulls and equipment.If it takes a little longer to make a trip,but the payoff is a chunk of cash saved on fuel,is that so bad?For leisure boating the style of light efficient monohull that Nigel Irens has been developing surely point a way forward.It might not be for every situation,but we ought to encourage those who can enjoy this type of boating.There has always been an element of truth in the notion that the smaller and simpler a boat is,the more fun you will have with it.
 
The funny thing is that this hysteria was partly fueled to create a bad image of Indonesia, India and China. And that is precisely where we will see the electric revolution.

China’s new PV installations hit 216.88 GW in 2023 https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/02/02/chinas-new-pv-installations-hit-216-88-gw-in-2023/

The collateral effect is that there will be oil for everyone and demand will not exceed supply, something that ten years ago was not at all clear, in fact some people were announcing an apocalypse due to oil shortage: the so-called "petro-calypse".

---

On the other hand we the plebs are mere spectators without any power, we are (ca. 2025) medieval peasants, hence the effort to look for topics and controversies to create brand image and distinguish Coca-Cola from Pepsi-Cola. IMHO our overlords are like our gods: sociopathic liars.

Arguing among ourselves is an archaism of the recent past. What has happened in the last 20-30 years in the West is beyond the imagination of the most imaginative science fiction writers. At present I see no point in it, and it is feeding a fiction. Our topics are: gastronomy, gardening, sports and sailing.

From my point of view and after studying a few thousand books i think that after a short hiatus we have returned to the central trend

Thutmose III - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thutmose_III
 
Last edited:
Doesn't actually have any engineering info about storing enough hydrogen to run a ship. Yep, as you said salesman pitch, ..... because we can't. Right now there is a good/adequate way to store (Hydrogen) energy in a concentrated form

"The MF Hydra is the first passenger and car ferry in the world to be powered by liquid hydrogen and two Ballard 200kW FCwave™ fuel cell modules that have been designed, manufactured, and tested at Ballard’s Marine Center of Excellence in Hobro, Denmark. The ferry can carry up to 295 passengers, 8 crew members and 80 vehicles, and sails on the triangular route between Hjelmeland-Skipavik-Nesvik in Norway."

MF%20Hydra_blog%20header%20image%201920x1080.jpg


World’s first hydrogen-powered ship is powered by Ballard fuel cells https://blog.ballard.com/marine/worlds-first-liquid-powered-hydrogen-ship-mf-hydra-is-powered-by-ballards-fuel-cells#:~:text=World's%20first%20liquid%2Dpowered%20hydrogen,powered%20by%20Ballard's%20fuel%20cells&text=Norway's%20goal%20to%20require%20all,shift%20in%20the%20marine%20industry.
 
The funny thing is that this hysteria was partly fueled to create a bad image of Indonesia, India and China. And that is precisely where we will see the electric revolution.

China’s new PV installations hit 216.88 GW in 2023 https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/02/02/chinas-new-pv-installations-hit-216-88-gw-in-2023/

The collateral effect is that there will be oil for everyone and demand will not exceed supply, something that ten years ago was not at all clear, in fact some people were announcing an apocalypse due to oil shortage: the so-called "petro-calypse".

---

On the other hand we the plebs are mere spectators without any power, we are (ca. 2025) medieval peasants, hence the effort to look for topics and controversies to create brand image and distinguish Coca-Cola from Pepsi-Cola. IMHO our overlords are like our gods: sociopathic liars.

Arguing among ourselves is an archaism of the recent past. What has happened in the last 20-30 years in the West is beyond the imagination of the most imaginative science fiction writers. At present I see no point in it, and it is feeding a fiction. Our topics are: gastronomy, gardening, sports and sailing.

From my point of view and after studying a few thousand books i think that after a short hiatus we have returned to the central trend

Thutmose III - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thutmose_III

And looking at what is happening with prices ...


https://www.premiumropes.de/ausruestung/bloecke

... I think my pained comment is even very optimistic. Sailboats are not our subject either. We are left to talk among ourselves, the plebs, gastronomy and gardening.
 
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making any potentially dangerous or financial decision, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.

  • Back
    Top