The perfect Passagemaker? (style within this genre)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by apex1, Aug 8, 2010.

?

Which one is your preferred style of long range cruiser?

  1. [img]http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/46218d1281296336t-perfect-passagemaker

    22 vote(s)
    24.4%
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    23 vote(s)
    25.6%
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    16 vote(s)
    17.8%
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    9 vote(s)
    10.0%
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    5 vote(s)
    5.6%
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    4 vote(s)
    4.4%
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    10 vote(s)
    11.1%
  8. [url=http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-style-within-genre-these-opti

    16 vote(s)
    17.8%
  9. [url=http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-style-within-genre-these-opti

    4 vote(s)
    4.4%
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  1. Eteze
    Joined: Jan 2011
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    Eteze New Member

    Malahide?

    Re Post 353...it looks like a Malahide/Romsdahl??
    They were a 60+ foot design from the 70's, Myles Stapleton the naval architect, and I think most had a pilot house perched fully on top, not half height above saloon, as in this example...
     

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  2. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Yes, most had a full second deck, you are right.
    And this one is clearly a Malahide, a Romsdal was very different.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  3. Eteze
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    Eteze New Member

    Having now read all 26 pages I see you know your Malahides Richard (The Conda V is one of my favorites). I favour the NST style although the interior layout of a tri-level seems more flexible.
    In the NST line can I bring in the Watson 72 as maybe the best contemporary example of a NST-yacht I know of and seems to meet most of the requirements being talked about here, including room for a Grenaa (I'm guessing there). Would be interested to know what wiser heads might think of the design, I mean style. Stylistically I think she's a beaut, economical lines, purposeful, solid but the interior I still struggle coming to terms with. As drawn originally it has far too many berths and the saloon/galley/dining gets lumped into one area. The high finish Big Bud pictured devotes the entire forward section to the owner's suite. The head ends up too far fwd and the cabin is cavernous...maybe too big.
    Watson specs here: http://www.realtrawlers.com/index.php/watson-72/watson-72-specs -- same clan that designed and built Hamal from Tad's post 159
    This thread has been an enjoyable read,
    Scott
     

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  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Hi Scott,

    I doubt the Watson can house a Grenaa but Connda V could. The Kelvin 8cyl installed is a bit bigger (longer) than a Grenaa.
    The Watson has a tiny little Deere of 11 ltr displ. as a main.

    But I must agree, its a nice boat, thanks for pointing to it!

    Regards
    Richard
     
  5. girvin
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    girvin Junior Member

    What is wrong with the hull on a defever 50? I understand about the windows but some storm covers would fix that. I have delivered one and it seemed to handle itself quite well in the ruff stuff. I am talking about the 60's wood hull. Sorry this was talked about on page 3. I am looking at one in my area so I was just wondering. 4k miles range and 500 gallon water. I am not trying to be a smart *** just wondering whats wrong with it. It looks to me it could go around with some flopstoppers and storm windows.

    I am a delivery captain and only got to take that one through 10-12ft waves but it was blowing 35 on the nose. So I don't know that much about them and don't have the knowledge of Naval Arch like so many on this forum.

    Thanks,
     
  6. Easy Rider
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Easy Rider Senior Member

    girvin wrote:
    "What is wrong with the hull on a defever 50?"
    It's just an average looking trawler yacht. It wouldn't turn heads unless someone was specifically interested in DeFever's. Also that "tent" on the FB is clearly a negative relative to style. And why are you guys talking about storm windows, engines, range, wing engines and all that other gearhead stuff. What happened to STYLE. I think naming the boats (like "Gentleman's Yacht") may have been a misleading element. Should have been #1,2,... lets hear style talk.
    The Gentleman's yacht and the Fantail yacht were the only Pasagemaker's presented that had high levels of style, class and balance. One vessel (not yacht and Passagemakers ARE yachts) Wasn't even a yacht from a standpoint of STYLE. It seems those of you on this thread don't know much about style and design (as related to each other) so this thread has degraded to talk about Passagemakerness. A Passagemaker could be disfunctional and be stunningly beautiful.
     
  7. Eteze
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    Eteze New Member

    But would you go to sea in it?

    Surely it isn't just a matter of eye-of-the-beholder arguments, safety and fitness to purpose have to meld in with style seamlessly. Where does one begin and the other end? Doesn't strike me that this thread is looking for the prettiest marina decoration.
     
  8. Easy Rider
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Easy Rider Senior Member

    Eteze,
    Read the 1st post by Richard.
    "Which one of the designs shown is your favourite in terms of styling?"
    "No discussions about material, propulsion or other technical features."
    "Again,please, we are talking style only, Your preferred style, thats it!"

    I was hoping for some really enlightening discussion about the elements of beauty, art and style. Some of the boats presented were lacking in same but I had hopes that because there are so many here some really meaningful dialogue would emerge but this thread has shown me that a lot of NAs out there really don't know the difference between good and bad from a standpoint of line, form and balance. Engineers need to tell us where the CG should be but architects should be able to tell us if it's beautiful. This thread goes a long way to explain why there is so many unattractive boats these days. In defense of Richard and the rest of you Richard DID say "favorite" and "preferred style". This of course implies discussion should have been about preferences and likes rather than best design in terms of beauty from line, form and the other elements of art. In my opinion there was one beautiful boat, two attractive boats and four unattractive boats presented. Why were they not all beautiful boats to choose from? Are there so few? In a Miss America Pageant ALL the women are beautiful.
     
  9. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    I say this over and over......Yacht designers work for clients, the client dictates how much beam and how many decks and how many cabins and heads the boat must have. I could just refuse, I have done this, but it means going hungry.......There is no point in my designing boats that nobody wants.....It's been 11 years since I came out with what I think is a nicer looking "passagemaker".......there are no buyers and no professional interest........Just like car designers can point to a Ferrari 288 GTO as the most beautiful car ever, that doesn't mean they get to draw those over and over.....realize that I and most (if not all) of my pears certainly know a nice looking boat when we see one.....market pressure creates very different outcomes.......
     
  10. CaptBill
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    CaptBill CaptBill

    Tad you better hope your 'Market Pressure' don't hear you talking like that.
     
  11. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    TAD, exactly as you say,from a builders point of view it's the same, good advice goes by the wayside in terms of materials. Example, either you wire it with automotive wire or i'll get someone else to do it. Epoxy is too expensive use polyester I only need it to last for a couple of years and so on. When troubles arise guess who takes the blame. It's like Holmes on Homes, i think some of the problems the unhappy home owners blame on shady contractors is work directed or done by the homeowners themselves and won't own up to it. In my early days i had to put up with it, now i give them a list of materials and if they don't comply well get someone else to do it, One of the perks of getting old and a little independant. Speaking of days past, it was nagging at me why your name sounded familiar, well going thru my vast files of collected nautical info, filed under boat engineering info there you were from WoodenBoat nov. Dec. 2003, Sailing Cruiser Design, Hydrostatics and art. Nine years ago you were educating the public on this very topic. From you web site designs i have to say you havent strayed too much from those beliefs while still keeping the customer satisfied.( must be trying at times) Your vessels, from a guy that has a good eye for a hull, still look like able seaworthy boats. Good for you, Geo.
     
  12. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Why?......
     
  13. CaptBill
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    CaptBill CaptBill

    It was a joke...

    'She who controls the purse strings' in other words.
     
  14. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, I thought we would talk without feeling the pressure of the market. All of us are more or less independent, and this is a independent platform.

    Of course we have our obligations and restrictions, but being free to design, construct and sell a product WE believe making it good (or close to perfect) makes us free to **** on market restrictions or so named crisises.
    We (my yards) had a 0,3% increase in market share during the so named crisis!
    Quality sells, there can be no doubt, and Quality sells better in hard days.

    I give up my engagement in Turkey, but I give it up as the market leader in terms of quality! None of my competitors has ever touched my quality level.

    So, donĀ“t argue TAD, we can do what we want, you as a designer, I as a producer, we just have to be free (mainly in terms of pennies) to do what our philosphy tells us to do, not what a market of premature retards believes to need.

    Anticyclic action is one of the points, not hectic reaction.

    Quality sells, yours, as mine, maybe not today, but over the long day. And I never left the path, even when my boats did cost 3 times the average price.
    (today some are 5 times average)

    You design nice and reliable craft, possibly not to the taste of everyone. As I do not build to the taste of everyone, but we must not hide, or leave our Philosophy.

    (your 74 was the easiest to sell btw.....but you did not finish her)

    So, then, let me tell you a simple thing.
    Yacht designers work for their clients.... a well known and proven fact.
    Yacht designers work for themselves... a better known, and better proven fact.
    From my very first days with Gerhard Gilgenast, or Willem De Vries, to the very last days with German Frers, I have never seen them working for a client (apart from their lips spell); THEY WORKED FOR THEIR OWN PHILOSPHY ONLY.....
    And all have been right. (which does not mean all their boats have been winners)

    Forget about clients wishes. Design a craft admirable and capable, get it build and it sells as hot bread. Ask for customers requirements, and you will never build a single dory!
    A customer is nothing but a penny shitting cow, and the average knows less than that cow about a boat. Forget them.
    Tell that cow where the grass is green and be reliable on that, so the cheese is a good one.

    clear?

    R
    R
     
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  15. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    I have had customers like that. No shillings, just pennies. :D
     
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