The motorsailer: Not good at anything or just a motorboat with sail?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by gunship, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    I agree that tender stores tend to compromise access to the steering gear, and there are aften few ways around it, but in adverse conditions, you want to be able get at it, regardless of location. And when sailing close quarters - ie inshore - the (immediate) dangers of 'bumping' into something are far greater than when at sea....
     
  2. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Well Will..the emergency tiller rig is well thought out. And inshore you may actually be able to open the transom and launch the dingy. Not pretty, plenty of water will be flooding in and the door may be damaged. . Its a compromise no doubt. Just like the large wheelhouse windows with complete nav station " on deck" . A compromise...exposed to damage, but absolutely indispensable for close in sailing. Just like life rafts...not stored for instantaneous launch like an offshore yacht . . If you have design detailing suggestions that enhance dual use..be my guest and speak out, Im all ears !
     
  3. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    @the nav gear in the weelhouse. aren't there external diplays for digital stuff nowdays, so you can have the monitors exposed, and the actual stuff safely down?

    also, is there no deck space you can knot the dighny to?
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    When your wheelhouse is flooded to such a extend that your nav. gear dies, you have other issues than electronic failures.
    Which brings us back to proper design (or the lack of, in this case).
     
  5. rickinnocal
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    rickinnocal Junior Member

    Brilliant???? It's a "brilliant" idea when you're close inshore on a lee shore and only 50 metres or so from some rocks to not be able to access the steering gear if something breaks???

    That's quite possibly the silliest design flaw I've ever read of. (Except, perhaps, the fold-out engine panel on the bridge wing of a yacht in Florida that was designed in such a manner that when you folded it away it put the engines to full ahead if you'd forgotten to turn them off...)

    Who doesn't? Are you seriously going to tell me that on an ocean passage you put a course into the autopilot and then ignore it for two weeks? No fixes? No position marks on a paper chart? Nothing but blind faith in God and your 'infallible' electronics?

    Richard
     
  6. rickinnocal
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    rickinnocal Junior Member

    Depends where you are, I guess. The Canadians now require you to take an exam and have a "Pleasure Craft Operators License" even to take a 6' Sevlor inflatable dinghy with a battery driven trolling motor out onto a village pond.

    Richard
     
  7. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Not so easy Gunship...it would take incredible attention to detail to waterproof every electrical junction box and electrical switch in this wheelhouse....hundreds of wires and connections back there...a flooded navigation wheelhouse would be a nightmare. Offshore wheelhouse are compact streamlined, small window wave breakers which guard a companionway hatch from rushing water, allowing air circulation inside the yacht. Gunship...have a look at the wheelhouse design details on a Ocean racing trimaran or mono. And Rickinnocal...you may be correct, the incident you describe has never happened and I have sailed this yacht well over 200, 000 miles. I foresee the real danger of steering failure to be offshore, where the steering is highly loaded and constantly cycled. Offshore a failure would put you at the mercy of possibly substantial seas and perhaps permanently damage the rudder. And yes indeed... offshore you put the autopilot on and stand watch, offshore you carefully "watch " waves , wind direction and the behavior of the yacht...very very little navigation offshore. Non stop navigation inshore.
    Design compromises are all over yachts, your only defense is awareness of the detail. The failure on the motoryacht who killed that girl in Thailand was operator error. Electronic fly by wire controls are easy to put in standby mode. Timeout function or simply disengage. The captain should have known better...he operated the yacht, he new the engine controls were vulnerable just like you know that its dangerous to swim around a propellor with the engine running
     
  8. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Here ya go...a nice, well conceived French ocean passagemaker. The French are masters at it. Self draining cockpit, inside navigation station, easy life raft launch, direct access to rudder stock head, twin rudders for tracking, good reaching hull shape....nice boat, even the fractionally rigged cutter sailplan is superior....not a very handy boat for inshore work. All that junk in your way when docking. No navigational view from that saloon house. They just spent 20 minutes untangling the starboard rudder from the neighboring mooring line. That dingy hung aft will constantly be in your face when close maneuvering, always full of water when bow down, block access to the gangway and require the outboard to be hung for duty. Hard to live with. Obviously its a soft bottom tender so they can stow it offshore, but inshore when in seven day a week service, a soft bottom tender is useless..Im regularly bouncing the ribs bottom on rocks when I take a line ashore for stern too the rocks anchoring..Im regulaly pulling the tender over rocky beaches. Comprimised inshore...good offshore.
     

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  9. pool
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    pool Junior Member

    In my world, the cockpit of a Jongert 2200m does not have a wheelhouse - it has a hard dodger, open aft, probably with a soft canvas closure. As any open cockpit, with or without a dodger, it can be flooded by waves and should be equipped accordingly.

    A wheelhouse is a fully enclosed hard structure, that can be made watertight by closing doors, vents, hatches. It can accomodate a steering station with good sightlines, a nav station and full instrumentation and a comfortable environment for the watch. It is not meant to "get wet", although the companionway down into the accomodation often can be closed off also by hatchboards for survival situations.
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    A ocean passagemaker hähh? This boat yes?

    Apart from the fact, that "passagemaker" refers to motoryachts, that boat can hardly be much further away from being a capable ocean cruiser.

    Mate you drivel.
    By so far almost all of your statements show, that you have not the slightes clue about sailing blue water. Try to impress someone else with your yachtclub knowledge, here you will fail.

    Richard
     
  11. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Ok Pool....You might consider it a hard dodger...I consider it a semi enclosed wheelhouse. Semi enclosed are preferred in hot climate regions. Many Enclosed wheelhouse's on modern yachts are termed "deck saloons ". Be careful with terminology...very much is invented by marketing men. The design challenge and purpose is similar. The wheelhouse, whether semi or enclosed, is always the better choice for inshore work.
     
  12. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Gotto admit I don't understand much of your "inshore" statements but I don't know nothing about sailing in Spain either. Anyway IMHO what's the biggest difference btw inshore vs offshore yachts is the amount of tankage..
     
  13. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    no offence, but Inshore in Spain? how? rather Coastal no?
     
  14. rickinnocal
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    rickinnocal Junior Member

    So now the steering components have 200,000 miles more age and stress on them. With steering failure, it's not "IF" it will happen, it is "WHEN".

    What? Where the heck do you come up with this stuff?

    On passage there is virtually *NO* load on the steering most of the time. One sets a course, balances the sails, and the steering has to do nothing but occasional small 'tweeks'. Look at the size of the trim tabs on wind vane steering systems - that tiny little thing is capable of providing all the load the steering needs. Even on my little weekender in the strong winds of San Francisco Bay (And for a boat that size, Berkeley to Sausalito IS a 'passage' :p ) I can use a bungy cord on the tiller to keep her on a steady course while I go forward to lash something down or go below for a call of nature.

    And onshore it puts you on the rocks. I have many, many years of seatime, both ocean passages and coastal work. I have never had a steering failure in the open sea. I have had two or three in close waters when you start turning the rudder this way and that to go up a river, or into a harbour, or to dock.

    Again, WHERE do you come up with this stuff?

    On most inshore trips there is NO navigation performed at all. 95% of the time the boat is steered by hand and eye. Pure pilotage, and no navigation beyond, "perhaps", a glance at the tide tables and current diamonds to get a general idea for which way the currents are going to set you. These days, often as not, not even that when you can set a course over the ground into the GPS autopilot and let the "infallible electronics" handle even that.

    Richard

    Navigation was always a difficult art,
     Though with only one ship and one bell:
    And he feared he must really decline, for his part,
     Undertaking another as well.
     

  15. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Well Gunship...hardly any Sailing on the coast of Spain..the Geography is wrong. Very few natrual harbors, anchorages, everything man made and ...believe it or not, dockage for the night in high summer is up to six and a half euro per sqaure meter, per night. Shiver me Timbers...Not a place for a cruise.
    Your part of the world has fantastic coastal geagraphy. Ive done great cruises in the baltic sea. Long summer daylight , near sweet water, good anchor holding ground, precisly charted with short hops between great ports. It might even be the next cruise.
    The location "Spain " is becuse I had to put something ? And Spain has the best shipyards and marine service facilities in the Med. When you rack up lots of miles, you have plenty of intense service to perform to scrub off the use. The last cruise covered nine thousand miles between May and OCt.

    The vessel is now located Spain, decomissioned, undergoing maintenace....and this includes leaking wheelhouse windows from UV damge, steering gear and autopiltot. 13,000 hrs engine time, 9000 hrs gen accumulated time need attention also. The direct drive steering gear has some woobly universal joints for attention .The electric autoplit, when used correctly, achieves about 25 thousand miles per drive motor. New drive motor time !! Its this week project !!!! Last week fuel tanks...buggers get fouled evey two years..two big buckets full of slop came out. And those framless wheelhouse windows...Mega project, my back hurts just thinking about it.. perhaps three weeks of graft. No doubt they look good, give good visability but frameless windows are hard to keep waterproof.

    And Ricinocal...be my guest and navigate away offshore !! Some years I take sea time seeking Yachtmaster students on a cruise, with their sextants,stopwatches, pencils, paper, tables and Whoa !!!...junk everywhere with guys fighting for nav station time !!! When young guys arent aboard, I sail with my trusty mates Vilber..(the little guy), Chumly and Percival (Percy). They reliably provide all weather, up and over, total spectrum dominance , giving me the time to chill out and read penthouse magazines in my bunk .
     

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