The motorsailer: Not good at anything or just a motorboat with sail?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by gunship, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I've seen bowthrusters added on a twin engine leisure boat because they couldn't get the hang of juggling the throttles. The trouble is that many small boat thrusters are low duty cycle and prone to cutting out just when you've made yourself really reliant on them.

    They do seem to be handy when reversing on boats that don't steer astern. I'd always prefer to have someone in the dinghy with the outboard running when manoevering amongst other tightly packed boats with a larger boat.

    There's a lot of boat handling in seamanship that seems to be lacking amongst leisure boat operators. Nobody ever teaches it to them. Lots of shouting revving of engines, props and bow thrusters churning the water in all directions and they still miss picking up their lines. Then the thruster cuts out ........ we used to take on insurance damage reports, some of the tales were hilarious.

    Now full dynamic positioning.......that's something ! ;)
     
  2. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    We're drifting off topic here, but without thrusters, I lack the skill to bring us back on line...;)

    This brings up an interesting quandry. The systems available these days, that provide full joy-stick control of even the smaller recreational craft are encouraging a whole raft (no pun intended) of newcomers to boating. For many, the fear associated with 'parking' their new toy is so great that they would otherwise have stayed ashore.
    Whilst I agree that everyone should be able to carry out the most basic tasks prior to be allowed on the water, who are we to deny these people the pleasure that we have for so long enjoyed?
    Yes, there's an increasing reliance on systems as a result. But the reliability (as opposed to duty times in the case of thrusters) is becoming ever greater... so why not?
     
  3. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    I think these newcomers would be much better of to invest a little bit of time and money, find someone to teach them basic manoeuvring in the half of day or so.

    That would give them control of their craft, peace of mind and sense of accomplishment. Al together more enjoyment on the water for them and their crews.

    But, of course, to each his own. I don’t like gadgets much and I’m sailing mostly on the Dutch traditional sailing ships that are huge by yachtsman's standard, rugged and very simple equipped . We are manoeuvring them everywhere without bow thrusters and with a single fixed propeller, no CPP either.

    Yes, should be more careful with terminology.

    Actually , I have very limited experience with a variable pitch, few outings couple of years ago on the quite small steel sailboat (10 – 11 meter), and I liked it, it was very easy. I think it was Sabb engine, not sure.
     
  4. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Well Willalision. I believe inshore and offshore boats have different traits, different design details.. Ive sailed many miles With this" motorsailor" , its a dream to operate 7 days a week inshore, but I don't really like going offshore with it. All of the details which make her handy to operate in close quarters, inhibit her behavior and usability in the ocean. My battering ram keel and skeg hung rudder behave beautifully in flat water and allow me to abuse them. Unfortunately , Offshore In a seaway you get blisters on your hands trying to keep the bow of the yacht under the sailplan and on track because its not possible to alter the geometry of the foils. . This yachts bias toward good windward performance with a narrow spreader angle, inboard tracks , high aspect ratio rig and a full batten roller boom make for very rewarding inshore sailing. Its roller furling boom is very much appreciated inshore, but offshore its a liability. Details like the roller boom, which allows effortless .. lets go sailing HOIST !!!... lets go swimming ... FURL !! really make the yacht usable inshore, but are fragile and nightmarish offshore. Overly complex, huge airborn batten mass, no way to relieve batten compression load on the luff tape and Simple things like not being able to sail "main boom high " when reefed in a seaway because of the preset furling boom geometry,, means that I will be dragging a low, triple reefed, perpendicular to mast, parallel to deck, boom end thru the backs of waves offshore.
    Detailing like tenders are the heart of an inshore yacht. I have a purpose built transom launch tender system that is brilliant. We could be chugging along, you spot a unique photo opportunity ashore and I can launch that tender for you in one minute. ONE MINUTE. I never must tow a tender , its always securely stowed and out of the way. This tender system had a serious defects offshore. The tender completely blocks all access to the steering gear and autopilot. Dangerous offshore and inconvenient as hell when a simple ,repairable, autopilot malfunction occurs and you must hand steer the yacht for the next two thousand miles because access is impossible without taking a saw and reducing the tender to bite size bits. . With a stern launch tender you enclose the steering cockpit and rely on cockpit drains to clear the water. Flyfish plug the drains daily and you flood. Naturally on an offshore yacht...tenders are not so important, but fast drainage and access to vital areas of the yacht are critical.
    Consider the inshore wheelhouse. Offshore the wheelhouse is for weather protection, not navigation...who navigates while offshore ? Inshore navigation is constant, relentless...one doze off and crash. . The inshore wheelhouse must enable the navigator to stay seated for long periods without fatigue and concentrate on the task at hand...full functionality of all systems at your fingertip and the ability to actually see were you are going. Almost an air traffic control tower. Tall wheelhouses with gimbaling nav seats are the order of the day for inshore sailing. offshore tall wheelhouses simply get in your way and having all your nav gear exposed to sea water damage when you knock down is bad for your passage. .
    Also consider the interior layout of an inshore yacht. Living space. Big bunks are mighty fine for sleeping when anchored but you simply roll around like a sausage on a grill offshore. Offshore you want pipe berths or coffin bunks to secure you for a good nights sleep. Offshore crew want many pilot berths so that the entire crew can sleep to leeward aft of the beam. Inshore you need a nice saloon and dinner table..offshore who eats dinner at the table ?.... Inshore you need a big spacious galley, offshore its not necessary to be big . Offshore the the chef stands in a galley behind the cooker, facing the bow of the yacht, with its gimbaling axis on the front end of the cooker so that when the oven door is opened the cooker balance is not upset throwing boiling water on the chef. Inshore...not important.
    When asking a skilled architect to consider all this detailing, he will in the end inform you that you cant possibly have everything....inshore close quarter work or offshore long legs work. Its possible to compromise and some designs do a decent job at it. I maintain that since most enjoyment is inshore work, you instruct the designer to draw a highly detailed Motorsailor , give it a tough pit bull character and accept compromise in its passage making ability...
     

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  5. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Milan..remember, yachts must operate in a wide range of geography. I know well how to use a spring line to come alongside...what happens when the dock is 3 meters high...how do I spring... how do I even get lines ashore ? with the thruster I can come alongside, and stay alongside...with no docklines, while my crew climbs the wall and ties us to the dock.
     
  6. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Oh and a Variable prop can be handy when you are motoring and sailing and want to add extra pitch to the prop. I sailed with one for years. Expensive gear, easy to abuse the engine with to much pitch and they don't feather that well. I prefer the 3 bladed Max prop. It has very powerful reverse thrust and can be fine tuned at haul out to match the yacht.
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    You did NOT have a CPP which we have mentioned here as the proper solution, you have had just a simple VPP when you talk Maxprop. And with too much pitch you don´t abuse the engine easily, with too less thats easier.

    The CPP is not expensive, and a completely different animal.

    To your post #79

    and your elaboration on the rest of offshore equipment and galleys, makes crisp clear, you never did ocean passages.
    The only topic you got halfways right was the bunk for heavy weather.

    Milan,

    you see what you did?
    And you say again variable pitch, thats wrong! The SABB was a controllable pitch prop.
    The VPP can be manually finetuned when the boat is hauled out. The CPP changes pitch during operation from full ahead to full astern without requiring a gearbox.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  8. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    And then there's the people mistaking CCP as Constant pitch propeller, instead of Controllable...
     
  9. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Milan - I agree, the notion that one should be able to take the helm of a 60 knot projectile or a 50 ton battering ram without the slightest bit of training verges on the bizarre... but whitness the uproar when the suggestion of even the most basic of licencing is suggested...!
    One of the great pleasures of boating is that one can escape the burdens of authority - push ones own comfort factor, without big brother watching over your shoulder every step of the way. So there's a ballance to be had IMHO, bteween licensing / training and freedom, but no doubting the pendulum is currently to far towards the freedom side in many places at the moment...


    Michael - I still find some of your logic a little screwy in places, but I think I'm beginning to understand what your trying to say. YOUR motorsailer is designed for inshore work. That's not to say that all motorsilers are... agree?
     
  10. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    In sweden, for a boat over 12x4 meters, you need to have a Skippers Exam. I think there is a requirement for very fast boats too. And there are plans of making it a required boating certificate for boats under 12x4 meters too.
     
  11. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Whoa Apex !!!!! You telling me that on an oceanic trip you sit in the nav station for days watching your boat creep across the chart plotter screen, carefully monitoring the depth for any newly erupted sea mount dangers, calculating tidal cycles, while diligently scanning the horizon with binoculars and stopwatch looking for sea buoys ? WHOA ! RELAX... Chill out, grab a coffee , a book, do some fishing, chill...everything's gonna be OK ! I promise .
    And Gee...why confuse people with acronyms..VPP and CPP...its useless. For yachts its Either a variable Hundested type prop or its a fixed prop, Auotprops are rare . A Max Prop is a fixed pitch prop and just like any other prop you can change its pitch at haul out... With the Max you change the pitch yourself with a few hex keys and reorientation on the selector gear and with a conventional prop you send it to the prop shop and the guys take care of it in no time. ...easy..
     
  12. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Yes and No Will...I see plenty of these modern Wally type very fashionable boats attempting to appeal to customers as inshore, versatile , motorsailor types. I look carefully or actually sail with them, but they miss the mark. I recently saw a motorsailor by Chuck Pain...very good detailing...the yacht appeared to be about 50ft long..

    Remember..the original post was ....Not good at anything or just a motorboat with a mast...YIKES !
     
  13. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Michael,

    nice that you tell me props, I may learn something (opposite to you).

    The Hundested is not a "variable", it is a "contollable" pitch prop. btw!

    I did not tell you all the nonsense you would like to put in my mouth. I know what circumnavigating is (again opposite to you), having done it several times.

    Interested what is your reply on Wills question.........

    edit........ah, yes and no. A very substantial answer, so to say.
    You are a ignorant amateur Michael!

    Richard
     
  14. Brian@BNE
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    Brian@BNE Senior Member

    Michael
    If I were to describe a 'purpose built transom launch tender system' that 'completely blocks all access to the steering gear and autopilot' in one word then the word is 'crap'. I can't believe anyone could regard that as 'brilliant'. You are joking right?
     
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  15. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Not at all...the only other storage solution for a 3 and a half meter rib is on deck or hung aft on davits... Neither is good. All yachts who stow tenders aft face the similar challenge. Some detailing is done for basic safety..for instance the Rib has a removable plug in its bottom so that the emergency tiller can be inserted and attached to the rudder head. . But the fact remains..offshore its not optimum to have access blocked in the stern peak. As i tried to point out, many details that make a brilliant inshore yacht, compromise it offshore. I have two very large opening hatches on the foredek. One is purpose built as a spinnaker launching tube...offshore it is not usable...to dangerous, inshore its a beautiful detail that allows me to launch and fly a spinnaker... and we do .
     

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