The motorsailer: Not good at anything or just a motorboat with sail?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by gunship, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    Williamson, that was one fine piece of motorsailor right there. quite similiar in layout of what i had in mind.
     
  2. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    World Cruiser is an all encompassing term. I dont like it. I see great designs by Perry and great designs by Finot. Different beasts. Offshore you need a boat that is powerful, fast to outrun the weather patterns and tracks effortlessly on a reach in a seaway. Offshore you are sailing the numbers.
    Inshore is different. Dead upwind, dead downwind to make the gap between reefs, smooth seas, who cares about numbers, youre steering with your hand on the helm..... Autopilot tracking is irrelevant but tonight you absolutely need the ability to survive the weather pattern in port. Who needs a 25kw bow thruster in the ocean ?
    Offshore you need little assisted power simply because youre sailing with reduced crew, reduced service demand . Inshore you have maximum service demand.
    Offshore you are always seeking optimum light displacement and speed. Surfing ability and weight in the ends are low on the list of an inshore yacht. . . Inshore you need hundreds of meters of chain, multiple anchors, big tanks of water fuel plus all the associated recreational toys to satisfy the cruises needs. Who needs a tender in the ocean ?
    Offshore you need minimal foils, inshore you need a battering ram under the yacht. In the end, when you refine the design to requirements you have two different beasts..one pit bull, one greyhound. The Hybrid beasts are hard to operate and ultimately doomed to early retirement.. Motorsailors must be pit bulls.
     
  3. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    I didn't use the term World Cruiser... but that's beside the point... call it what you will. Cruising the world is an "all encompasing" passtime... any vessel that is only good at crossing oceans, but is difficult (or impossible) to operate at the other end is only fulfilling half its SOR.
    No - you don't need bow thrusters at sea - but what about when you reach your destination? And why wouldn't you want large tankage in a vessel design to operate away from facilities for extended periods? The various elements that go to producing a complete and cohesive design are as varied as the people and areas for which they are designed. No two cruisers or cruises are the same and the inclusions / exclusions for each and every one are likely to be different.

    The age old argument of whether an offshore yacht should be fast or comfortable is a whole different discussion - and one that is even less likely to reach concensus than trying to define a motorsailer! Perry, Seaton-Neville and Beeldsnijder (the designers of the Cheoy Lee's that I listed) clearly disagree with you for a start....;)

    And you've not answered the question - why, in your opinion, is a motorsailer only an inshore vessel?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Interesting thoughts, but.....

    did you possibly mix up in- and offshore sometimes? Do you really seek surfing ability offshore? Don´t you need multiple anchors offshore?
    And so on.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  5. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    Still not needed, if you know your stuff - how to use propeller walk to your advantage. (Especially easy with CPP).
     
  6. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Oh dear... now we are really in strife! What's a motorsailer? Fast or comfortable cruisers? "Real" yachtsmen don't need bow thrusters....

    Where will it end....????
     
  7. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    by that same argument you don't need a bow thruster inshore either...:rolleyes:
     
  8. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    Yes, that's what I mean, if you learn behavior of your boat well, you don't need bow thrusters.
     
  9. rickinnocal
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    rickinnocal Junior Member

    I'd have to question just one word of that... "inshore". To me, the whole point of a motorsailor is the "go anywhere" ability to use both sail and/or motor to cruise wherever you want to go.

    If all you want is an inshore boat, why do you even need a sail at all? If you're cruising inshore then you're going to be popping in and out of bays and estuaries and around headlands and islands, so why not just motor all the time rather than be eternally tacking and gybing? Also, you named large tankage as one of your requirements. Why, if you consider a motorsailor to be an inshore boat? When cruising inshore there's usually a source of fuel and water within a short cruise.

    To me the classic motorsailor is by definition a long range boat. The ability to cross oceans under sail, or motor for a few days non-stop when becalmed, and the ability to manouver easily under power when you reach some chain of islands or section of coastline when you arrive. Lots of tankage for those long crossings, and plenty of 'house' space for living both on passage and when you get where you are going.

    Richard
     
  10. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Gee...you could motor and you could simply avoid the hassle of living with a space, volume limited sailing yacht by going power. The reason you own any boat with a mast is the challenge and enjoyment of sailing. Offshore the challenge is surfing wave fields and maximizing comfort by moving fast downwind...only a bonehead would choose an upwind ocean passage. Take a slow yacht downwind offshore and the crew will slowly rock and rolled to death, while they countdown the " when are we gonna get there " days.. Inshore is a different world. The challenge is close rock hopping navigation, wind patterns around islands, mountains, channels typically over smooth seas. the joy of sailing. Speed is not the big issue since you only need cover twenty miles today. This close in navigation and sightseeing is why an inshore yacht MUST have a good visibility wheelhouse with nav station and a big deep cockpit for people to hang out in and enjoy life. . Who needs a big deep cockpit offshore ? just turns into a swimming pool when a wave washs over.
    Inshore you purposely choose upwind movements. The yacht sails slower so that navigational challenges are easier , the guests aren't being bonked by a gibing boom or burnt by running sheets. Upwind course changes..tacking ,is only a twist of the wheel and a toe jab on the power winch button and when sailing upwind the yacht is better able to utilize predominantly light wind to create its own apparent wind. 6 knots of true wind is a very physical environment to sail any yacht down wind, big downwind sails, tight gibe angle, very little apparent wind over the deck and guests roasting in the heat...6knot true upwind is hog heaven on a properly designed yacht. Design your motorsailor with a powerful sailplan and make it weatherly.
    As for tankage..offshore who is doing the laundry, cleaning the deck,and taking nice hot showers twice a day ? For that matter who is even sailing with guests ? You gonna bring your mate, his wife and kids on a transatlantic ?
    The Motorsailor...is a classic inshore design.
    Oh and someone mentioned Bow Thrusters...well, an inshore yacht needs a bow thruster and a stern thruster. Many times...almost daily I enter very small, depth constrained ports. The only way to maneuver is by physically spinning the yacht in its own length. I am constantly unsticking the keel from mud shouldered channels by bow thrusting over to deeper water. Dont leave home without a powerful bow thruster.
     
  11. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Upwind, close quarter ,rock hopping ...the life of a motorsailor
     

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  12. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    but why make it hard when you can make it easy?
     
  13. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    It’s not hard when you get hang off it. Even if you have a bowthruster it is a good idea to learn to manoeuvre properly without one anyway. (It will brake sooner or later).

    Simplicity is good. Bow thrusters add costs and complexity to the boat. I would rather invest in the VPP - all the good things, It burns less fuel, engine power is better used, you can turn propeller in neutral position during sailing, (minimise prop resistance), manoeuvring became very simple, almost as with bow thrusters. (You can reverse propeller pitch and then easily swing the stern both ways. VPP is very reliable, and no need for the hole in the stem.
     
  14. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    ah, never thought of that with the Controllable pitch propellers! then it's another matter!

    on the boat we had (with a fixed pitch propeller) you had to make a hard to port first if you needed to stop quickly. you could only reverse to port. only if you gave a short burst, could you compensate with rudder so that you went reasonably straight...
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Michael,

    the more you write about offshore sailing, the more I doubt your experience in this field. That is just pure nonsense:

    First, YOU don´t decide if you go up or downwind on a ocean passage. More likely the weather (and your destination) decides that. Surfing with the small crew you mentioned, is a rare occasion, if it ever happens..............
    And I do my laundry, and have my shower on long passages, what else?

    Next, you should learn sailing! This is the next nonsense:
    Where is the difference when you have to enter small ports? Does the boat know it is a inshore port? Don´t you tuck into every other hole on circumnavigations?

    For what in hell or heaven do you need a stern thruster? Do you have a 22meter Motoryacht with 3000hp installed? (there it makes sense)

    Learn to handle your boat before you comment on the requirement of thrusters. I am docking different (very, very different) boats every other day, and usually just forget that I have a thruster, or even two. I am not familiar with having them, thats all.

    Milan,


    the CPP (as mentioned before) is a godsend on a displacement vessel and far more important and even helpful than thrusters.
    But don´t say VPP, that is a different animal!

    Regards
    Richard
     
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