The motorsailer: Not good at anything or just a motorboat with sail?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by gunship, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. AlexMorozov
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    AlexMorozov Custom yachts

     
  2. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    To quote myself (what a strange sensation) - "This thread ... has too many dimensions to achieve a consensus ... "

    - perhaps I spoke too soon, as a consensus is emerging after all. A motorsailer seems to be a craft that can do both jobs adequately in relation to its displacement, perhaps not brilliantly but that description can be reserved for its accomodations. And of course there's the "detailing" - I love that term although it doesn't sound terribly nautical! With all the necessary compromises there's always going to be a boat of comparable size that is faster or more seagoing, but there seems no reason why the MS should be a slug, it probably just has to be a little bigger to compete.

    Perhaps there could be a long-distance race where either sail or power could be used freely with time penatlies for fuel used; then the motorsailer might come into its own from a racing perspective. No doubt it has already been done ...
     
  3. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    true that...

    let's try to define something here then. a sailing yacht is a displacement vessel designed for operating under sail. not much arguing there.

    then the motor part: at least i think displacement motor vessel here, as it is the only locigal option. true there are semi-diplacement motor vessels and such, but i find that's more compromises if youre planning to sail too.
     
  4. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Alex...then you must not use the term "Motorsailor". When you introduce compromises into a design , you must give the design a new name..".racercruiser" or whatever best describes the design approach you choose. Dont confuse people who don't have the experience to understand and interpret yacht design. A MOTORSAILOR is already a highly refined, purpose built design. Details like twin rudders are beautiful when you need an ocean greyhound that needs a steering system which effortlessly tracks the yacht to reduce autopilot load for the next 5000 miles. These details are not needed on a motorsailor. Motorsailors operate coastal..close in..on two week vacations with the wife and kids.
     
  5. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    The attempt to accurately define - or rather to pigeonhole - the term motorsailer has been argued ad-nauseum on this form many times in the past. Just as it has every time to date, there will be no concensus here. And there's little point in trying to achieve any - simple fact is, that there is no simple, widely accepted, definition of what a motorsailer is.
    As far as I'm concerned, however, it is nothing more complex than a vessel that is designed to perform well under both power and sail - and which accepts that there are compromises to be made in both regards.
    The computer rendering that Alex has posted is certainly on the speedy side of the ledger, but who's to deem that it doesn't qualify for motorsailer 'status'?...
    As for the notion that a "a sailing yacht is a displacement vessel designed for operating under sail" or that the "displacement motor vessel here, as it is the only locigal option"... well.... Who says?... and why? Is an Open 60, which is clearly designed to plane no longer a sailing yacht?
    Just as valid, of course, to ask whether the addition of a raised saloon / wheelhouse and a bigger engine would qualify as a motorsailer...;)

    More pertinent to me though, is the choice of a 'large outboard' as the powerplant for Alex's proposal. There are advantages to the use of outboards, for sure (like the ability to tilt the drive completely out of the water), but as the size and weight go up, the problem of severely limited prop diameter becomes a significant issue.
    Jack Setton employed the use of a pair of o/b's in his ULDB Pinoeer in the 1980's, but other than that, I'm not aware of any succesful large yachts using o'/b's as propulsion....
     
  6. gunship
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    gunship Senior Member

    I say so! others can disagree but i would like motivations why.

    I am speaking about displacement vessels here only, as I think that casual sailing, at least where I live, rarely propels anything larger than a laser dinghy to planing speed. I'm speaking about boats that you can live on for at least a week or two, fairly comfortable. I think an open 60 is a racing yacht, and is at the other end of the spectrum.
     
  7. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    I agree with you Gunship... very few cruising sail boats would get on the plane in the normal course of events - but those that do are still sailing boats! And if one such vessel was designed to operate under both power and sail - who is to decide whether it's a motorsailer or not? That's the only point I'm trying to make.
    I imagine that Alex would suggest that one could live quite comfortably on his proposed yacht for a week or two....
    As I said - no concensus can be reached here... because there are no straight forward parameters to work against. I'm not looking for an argument... just offering my opinion on the matter... just like everyone else:D
     
  8. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Ive been sailing this motorsailor for 17 years. Its moderate displacement , , big MTU diesel, robust construction, , highly detailed with reefing spin pole,, steering wheels on the front of pedestals, dedicated spi launch forehatch, stern launch tender, efficient ground tackle, correct stem angle, good weather protection, good load carrying ability, its easy to operate and it moves right along .
    I don't agree when people try to change the formula...too many hard to operate , latest fashion, yachts pretending to be motorsailors. Even the original post...are motorsailors real sailboats ? betrays the ignorance of this type of yacht.
     

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  9. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I'm inclined to agree: stuffing a diesel into a yacht doesn't make it a motorcruiser.
     
  10. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  11. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Surely most would agree... and yet, for many, the pics of the vessel used to demonstrate that point of view (lovely looking boat BTW michael) would indicate (rightly or wrongly) a craft that is just that - a sail boat with a larger than normal engine installed....
     
  12. rickinnocal
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    rickinnocal Junior Member

    Now there's an idea. I have a Coronado 25 as well, but the outboard engine one. However, the hull was designed for an inboard, and it's a pretty easy retrofit. The factory fuel tank, though, is under the Stbd cockpit seat, moving it into our nice big hollow keep top would be a good idea.

    Richard
     
  13. rickinnocal
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    rickinnocal Junior Member

    My new project boat is a motorsailor. Launched in 1996 to a modification of Skip Calkins 1957 50' motorsailor "Legend" - which won the Transpac the year she was built.

    "Legend" was built with a flush deck and no pilothouse in order to race, but she was quickly followed by sisters "Sabrina" and "Amante" and three others with pilothouses as true motorsailors. Here is a recent picture of the 1960 "Amante", which now lives in Australia....
    [​IMG]

    And here is her interior pilothouse...
    [​IMG]

    The builder of my "Glory B" wanted more room, so Skip drew a modification of the 50' plans, opening the canoe stern up to a transom, and adding 4' of length. The new 54' length made room for an aft cabin. She has a fin keel - albeit an fairly shallow draft one - for sailing, and a 135HP diesel for motoring, with 700 gallons of diesel tankage and lots of storage space.

    Here she is on the hard during the recent haulout after I bought her...
    [​IMG]

    And as she sits today....
    [​IMG]

    As you see, there's no sailing gear yet - the original builder never finished her. The next step is to get this stepped....
    [​IMG]

    Richard
     
  14. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Sure...thats a a classic motorsailor. The designer even understood that people naturally like to cook, eat and hang out in the wheelhouse. Ill bet , with a proper sail area to displacement ratio, her canoe body will sail very well. I assume that the appendage detailing ...drop keel ? centerboard ? allows the yaccht to stand on it. For me...the term motorsailor implies design detailing for inshore, seven day a week, real world use. Any yacht can have a tender stored on the foredeck..a motorsailor will have a highly detailed, purpose built tender and launch system. Our tender has a cutaway, hinged transom so that the motor folds into the tender, lowering its profile and reducing the tenders footprint. I might launch the tender 4 or 5 times a day...its gotta work. I might anchor the yacht 4 or 5 times a day...its gotta work. The list goes on and on. A proper motorsailor will have plenty of machinery in its engine room, it needs standing headroom and the correct volume of air space to keep things naturally cool. Half of the reason behind a wheelhouse is to free up interior space ,creating engine room volume and to supply allweather ventilation. Obviously each, ease of use, detail creates a perfomance sailing compromise...you wont find any motorsailors with heavy weather upwind ability...thats for the MTU. When I see a hull and appendages that imply upwind or surfing ability, I question its purpose.
     

  15. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Michael... why the limitation of being designed for 'inshore' cruising?
    In anyone's terms, these models from Cheoy Lee would be termed motorsailers, and they are all intended for world cruising....

    http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/perry43m.htm
    http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/motorsail52.htm
    http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/motorsail53.htm
    http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/motorsail78.htm

    The features you describe are all fine attributes, but one's that would not necessarily be confined to the motorsailer, IMHO. Good tender launching / storing systems, for example, are the result of careful design. They may be easier to incorporate into a traditional motorsailer, but are they only found in the genre?
     
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