The motorsailer: Not good at anything or just a motorboat with sail?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by gunship, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. YuriB
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    YuriB Junior Member

    In general, is there any reason to have others than square rig on motorsailers? Do they sail upwing (or does it make sense to sail upwind on motorsailers?)
     
  2. viking north
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    viking north VINLAND

    YuriB--as I have posted before the term motorsailer is a very vague one that covers a wide range of vessel capabilities. Many motorsailers do quite well to windward,in fact better than many so called heavy crusing boats classified as sailboats. It depends on many factors within the design that will place it in the percentage classification. Which by the way is the proper designation for a motorsailer. Not just calling it a motorsailer but where it truley fits within these family of vessels. Example a 70/30 motorsailer (70% motor/30%sailer) would definately not go to windward. A 50/50 under the ideal sea conditions ( good wind with little sea running) go to windward but would possibly have to make twice as many tacks as one rated 30/70. The 30/70 vessel is actually getting close to heavy crusing sailboats and in many cases will actually outsail them to winward. So while apples are a fruit they come in a wide selection of hardness- sweetness- and taste.-- Hope this is informative on what I consider a most pratical small vessel, then again i'm a little biased--Geo.

    A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the care and love of her owner--
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2011
  3. YuriB
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    YuriB Junior Member

    viking north, i have seen very few 70/30 and 50/50 motorsailers (except may be Maltese Falcon) with square rig.
    Almost all of them were with small bermuda type sails or in some cases gaff sails.
    And also from practical point of view, i'm not sure that having good efficient diesel on board and enough fuel, anyone even on 30/70 will go sailing windward (unless it is a pleasure trip for purpose of waisting time).
     
  4. viking north
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    viking north VINLAND

    YuriB you are entering the impatient and lazy human factor into the operational ability equasion of the motorsailer. That same opinion can be applied to many true sailboats.There are many motorsailers out there that are quite capable of going to windward as as i prev. stated as good or better than full keeled heavy crusing vessels. More modern motorsailer designs employing a modified long foil keel/skeg combination are reasonability efficient at windward work. I am presently working on such a build myself (photo) all be it a surfboat/lifeboat conversion (beautiful sailing hull with good specs,)(See Nancy G under Boatbuilding this forum) I have every confidence it will go to windward. My last conversion a pocket 21ft. motorsailer (photo) incorporating just a slab long keel/skeg has reasonable winward capabilities dispite it's sail to disp. number and being designed and built by myself, the owner and his friend none of us being a proper designer. On this present build I have hired a part time designer plus the great help i have gotten from this forum, I have every confidence it will surpass my prev. build. As i prev. posted one just can't lump all motorsailers together they are as diverse in their designs and capabilities as their true sailing sisters. As a general rule, by design, they are less capable to windward but that doesn't mean they can't do so. In my opinion if it can't claw off a lee shore other than saving a few gallons on fuel why bother with the extra cost and maintenance of the rigging and sails. If one was concerned about backup to the main engine It would be cheaper to install a small diesel that could be coupled to a generator or the main shaft via. electro/mechanical clutches.---Geo.

    A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the care and love of her owner---
     

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  5. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  6. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    MotorSailing Synergy

    I was making this same point in my posting on another subject thread,
    "In light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to bring the apparent wind forward to make the sails work harder, and the combination provides much better results than either motoring or sailing alone…… sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs"
     
  7. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Hi, well I have read all the pages of this debate and I have ejoyed them thouroughly :) Took a while mind you! Well this subject is near and dear to me for a motorsailer will be my next purchace. I will soon retire and my need for speed will cease to exist. I will sell off my 23 foot powerboat and go up to a 36 to 48 foot full displacement hull motorsailer.

    I have been researching for a while now and looked at several designs and bought study plans as well. I have communicated with TAD with very pleasing results ans wel as Bruce Roberts, Boden,Kasten and others. I think a good motorsailer comes from a good designer/Naval Architect not nessisarily an off the shelf plastic boat. I am thinking of Bruce for example making a spray hull from a sailboat and putting it into a trawler type configuration with a gaff rig. The hull is all sailboat with the topside trawler and a sail plain that will work around the superstructure. Tad has entices me a simular approach with a power schooner.

    My perspective is a powerboat user that will be on a fixed income(retirement) starting to learn to sail and developing my skills to rely more on sails than motor, eventually :) As fuel prices go up my income will likely not. In todays economy I foresee that the out of fashion motorsailer will be tomorrows choice! Who can afford to go fishing offshore for 8 to 10 hours recreationally in a mid sized boat? Maybe if you have paying customers. I have a V-6 volvo penta and I go through 100 bucks a day. Imagine the poor guys with twin v-8's ! Ouchie mama!

    But back to topic, a well designed package with a sailing hull, a strong 100% duty deisel, a cpp and a suitable sail plan is not to much to ask for. I think this set up around 40 feet with close to 800 square feet of sail, 100hp and 500 gallons of fuel would suit my needs very well. I hope to skill up to do some close hauled sailing, eventually ;) I have a few sailies up here to mentor me or humor me politely heh heh.

    The 70-30 ,50-50 thing will hopefully be my choice as an operator and not due to a poorly chosen design. most of what I have seen at the docks that I like are custom jobs , not off the shelf mass produced plastic boats.

    Long live the the motorsailer !
     
  8. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    Hi Quatsino Boater,
    I too have enjoyed the refresher on this thread... I have a motor-boat, that started out as a sail-boat, and does very well... It is for sale... My build thread http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-building/my-little-piece-peace-25962.html

    Come buy my boat for (Au$400,020.oo) 226 ounces of gold bullion, (what it cost me to build at today's exchange rates) - Arrrr for a quick sale, 200 ounces, or 6 x 1kg bars of 9999 gold bullion & Au$12,500 in change will make it yours...) also listed here http://yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/power-boats/oram-c39-ms/96270 or http://www.australiawide.com/list-b...liawide&ToDo=show_details&cate=Power&de=96270
     
  9. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Very nice Masalai, Does it come in blue? kidding :) It is very ,very nice and spacious!! It looks as if you have a fulsized fridge and and an upright freezer? Wow lots of room! But alas I like mono hulls out of steel or aluminum :( . There is alot of deadheads up here ( water soaked logs) 24 to 60 inches in diam. and up to 60 feet long just about 6 inches under the water. Just about everyone I know had a prop go or a leg .

    Log salvagers try to get the most of them but a resent surge in the lumber market has the logging companies going full swing. They truck haul to the water, dump them , form large booms then tug them or load them onto huge self dumping log barges, pics included. When they dump these all the logs enter the water. the heavy ones sink then re apear later! In our inlet , about 25 miles long there must be 6 or so log dumps and 50 or so booms at any time. A log or two always escapes.

    So this is why I require a heavy steel or aluminum full displacement sailing hull , for the things that go bump! :)

    [​IMG]

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    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
     
  10. YuriB
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    YuriB Junior Member

    Really, nice looking boat. Did you do any calculations of the wheelhouse wind resistance? I'm asking because i have my own project and it has forward built wheelhouse. Just wanted to estimate how much it would affect windward performance.
     
  11. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    viking north VINLAND

    Na I don't get that technical about it. Windage is a problem with any wheelhouse, doghouse equipped boat and one makes adjustments to compensate--If hard going to windward, tweak the sails, or fall off a bit to gain more power and if that fails fire up the engine and motorsail--most heavy cruisers and many impatient regular sailers do the same--hells curse thou if they'd admit it. On this build i'm going to slope the forward end of the main cabin and likewise the windshield to deflect the air upward as it moves back.Just thought of something, wonder what that does to the air hitting the sails. That would be an interesting wind tunnel experiment, modifying the superstructure to enhanse the air flow to the sails. In your case with the wheelhouse forward, not much you can do other than possible a little reshaping to reduce wind resistance. I would hazard to guess you will do more motorsailing to windward than a standard wheelhouse location. No big deal--thats why the term motorsailer. If one is a die hard sailer, motorsailers are not his vessel. Now running with the wind one could always open the rear cabin entrance doors and make use of the wheelhouse spinnaker :)-- Geo


    A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the care and love of her owner--
     
  12. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member holding true course

    I am confused by the whole 30/70, 50/50, ect debate. I motorsail my motorsailer nearly 100% of time underway. The sum is greater than the parts. Especially since my 'engine' is battery powered electric. What's confusing is the atitude that it must be either sailing or motoring, and seldom motorsailing. Am I the only believer in motorsailing is the proper propulsion for a motorsailer? How odd?
     
  13. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    Yobarnicle we meet again this evening--broke two strings on my 12 string so killing time on the forum tonight. Don't take the whole process so serious, there are no set rules with a motorsailer--It's all personal taste. I like a motorsailer thats oriented more toward pure sail than pure motor. This allows some but not perfect windward performance so if i'm not in a hurry I'll make more tacks but get there just the same without engine. Other people like the opposite using the sails more to steady the boat and save a few dollars on fuel with a beam or following wind. In between there are many like yourself, using both to get the job done---Geo.

    A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the care and love of her owner--
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2011
  14. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    I am confused by the whole 30/70, 50/50, ect debate.

    This is usually the vessels ABILITY decision.

    Today a 90/90 is easy.

    The only detriment as a fully rigged sail boat is the weight of the engine , batteries and fuel , as well as prop drag (small with a CPP).

    Since these are part of most modern cruisers , the only real minus is the extra volume of hull given to more fuel. -10% ?

    The only detriment as a displacement power boat is the slightly deeper keel and weight of extra ballast , and the air drag of the mast and rigging.

    The deep keel frequently can protect a larger diameter prop , helping efficiency.

    The usual motor sailor deck house does have more windage , but living ON the boat , rather than IN the boat is one of the biggest reason folks go for power boats -10% ?

    FF
     

  15. cyclops2
    Joined: Sep 2010
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    cyclops2 Senior Member

    A boat that can never be wrong.

    People buy these boats because they like both forms of power. 2 X the ability to come home with out.... tow boat. :)

    We just can not accept a versatile & non competitve boat.
     
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