The Issue with going all Electric

Discussion in 'Electric Propulsion' started by jehardiman, Sep 5, 2022.

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  1. Flotation
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    Flotation Senior Member

    In outright sailing speed records foils are used to keep craft in the water instead of lifting them on top. Foils also transition from providing lift to an amount exceeding that of the weight of the craft they make part of to the function of a "hook" to make use of relative speed differences between media when used by kitefoilers to set speed records in their class for example. Archimedes is being maneuvered out of the speed sailing world:

    Syroco vs SP80: The race to create the world's fastest sail boat https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/syroco-sp80-fastest-sailing-boat-scn/index.html

    My professor refused to read anything containing an exclamation mark, let alone smileys.
     
  2. Flotation
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    Flotation Senior Member

    While we are derailing the discussion: how do the "immigration" and "stopping immigration" options influence the world's population? Besides the fact that people who emigrated to more developed countries on average reproduce less than their counterparts who stayed at home, which results in the opposite of what your table is suggesting?
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2022
  3. seandepagnier
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    seandepagnier Junior Member

    I have often mentioned aptera: the statistics show it has roughly half the resource consumption of conventional electric car (such as tesla)

    It is clear to me that half of (2.5 to 4 times more copper) would still be a severe strain. Further, many people I have talked to simply dismissed aptera for being a 'tricycle' so given the choice, they will chose the version with the most resource use, similar to the hydrofoil vs regular ferry to save 20 minutes (when on the candela map they could actually travel over land using less energy just as fast and keep the ferry for very short distances across water where speed is less relevant) I guess its "fun" to travel fast over water.

    ebikes may be several times better and potentially much more viable, however they are now allowing these bikes (with little modification can reach 44mph or 70kph) on otherwise safe bicycle paths. My confusion here is, the ebike weight is more than a regular bicycle because of batteries, motor, and more likely overweight rider, then, the speed on average has been shown to be twice as much (20mph vs 10mph) as if people have to use only pedal power. Using basic kinetic energy formula: kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x velocity^2 the energy involved in crashes is many times more. Indeed electric bicycles are now deemed more dangerous than motorcycles now that we have several years of data on them. It seems that the last place I used to be able to avoid motor vehicles and travel safely has been taken away and now is overrun with motorists. The politicians making the rules are motorists themselves. The path says "non motorized" and the politicians say that a bicycle with a motor is not motorized....
    Recent interviews of the rio tinto executives in australia claim that the local people committed a crime against them by destroying the mine and they want to cover this loss as well as their investors who had believed they would make much more money than they did. The australians involved have no consideration for the lives of the locals, not back then, and not today. The leader of the mining corporation still refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing even after sending mercenaries on helicopters to shoot unarmed people from the air and burn their villages. They sent the PNG military who committed thousands of rapes, many victims committed suicide. They claim the locals have a debt to repay from all the medical aid given to them, so the mine must reopen since the island has a red number in their book, however they are afraid to show themselves on the island because people there would murder them.
    It is unlikely this is possible as there are thousands of people there who will not allow the mine to reopen. The only people who are in favor are similarly the same initial corrupt politicians.

    From a similar mine (Porgera) in new guinea even, norway banks refused to buy gold from because they destroyed the river there. Another mine in indonesia pumps the effluent into deep ocean claiming how good they are for paying extra to do this. It is unclear what the implications are, perhaps the polluted water will only affect people in the distant future long after the mine is exhausted. The large copper mines in south america dump their toxins into the sea. "Sulfide-ore copper mining is a toxic industry with a very poor track record of success. A peer-reviewed Earthworks study in 2012 showed that 100% of modern US copper mines that had operated for 5 years or more had already polluted water" There is no clean copper mine that I know of.

    I ask about copper because it is used by electric vehicles. Perhaps they can use aluminum instead, but would that be any better?
     
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  4. Flotation
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    Flotation Senior Member

    I know aluminum is used instead of copper in the majority of new powerlines nowadays: Aluminium-conductor steel-reinforced cable - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable

    Not sure of all the ways the replacement of copper with aluminum in motors will affect efficiency. Edit: so far this is the best i could find: Weight Reduction in Electric Motors: Aluminum vs Copper Wires https://scholar.uwindsor.ca/etd/8440/ Summary of the summary: "Overall, this study shows aluminum is a viable conductor that provides significant cost and weight savings in electric machines with similar performance to copper; however, further improvement to aluminum surface quality and insulation properties is required to effectively replace copper." What i understood from other things i found is that because of the properties aluminum has alu windings will have to be bigger, resulting in a larger distance between elements what in turn reduces efficiency. All in all it does not seem to be impossible to replace copper with aluminum in motors.

    Thank you for your input on how mining affects communities and the environment in reality. And for showing how some transportation solutions create new issues in other ways. We really should do everything we can to help prevent the negative side effects of solutions for the energy and climate crisis.

    What remains it that we will need to change in order to preserve our health and environment. Problem is people are only willing to change if you offer them reasonable alternatives. Or things will change by descent into chaos and war.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2022
  5. Alan Cattelliot
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    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    I never had any tought about this and I don't see where you are going with this. In this table, the professor just put factors influencing the evolution of the number of people on the whole planet. In France, migrant settled for a long time come from countries where political instabilities causes the whole population to starve to death, or to kill themselves. But there is perhaps a major biais in this table. Why don't you start a new thread ?
     
  6. Alan Cattelliot
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    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    hkdgfjklfhoerkerklhkjhtlkjtlhkjvb├╣vbkn !! ;)
     
  7. seandepagnier
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    seandepagnier Junior Member

    From what I know, many power transformers (substation and pole pigs) also use aluminum windings. Aluminum is much lighter in weight than copper but with lower conductivity. It is easy to compensate the conduction loss by using a heavier gauge on a powerlines, and since the weight is so much less it is still substantially lighter and preferable (even if copper were as cheap as aluminum) since the weight is supported by towers or poles. So a similar power motor would have to be physically larger but actually would be lighter in the windings, but this presents a problem if it uses fixed magnets as now you would need physically larger magnets and thus more neodymium. Perhaps some of the new magnet alloys that do not rely on rare earths can fill this gap. Another option is to use a higher RPM and more gear reduction but this has other tradeoffs.

    Despite this, aluminum mining also presents a large environmental cost though it seems hard to beat the damage from copper/silver/gold mining. Aluminum also has corrosion issues, especially if connected to copper, as the different thermal coefficients lead to issues over time (loosening connections) and although special connectors do exist for this it has caused a lot of fires.
    Another issue is ductility. I believe the alloy must be nearly pure to achieve good conduction which could lead to failure in moving parts especially with impacts or shocks with pure aluminum vs pure copper. I would like to know more, and perhaps aluminum windings are viable on a boat but not a road vehicle for example.
    This is true, but what is "reasonable" is subjective. If people expect alternatives with the same capabilities as before: they will be disappointed. The EV proposed alternative are more than adequate (since I manage just fine without electric propulsion) Even if EV can be cheaper or offer new capabilities like recharging from a tow generator: because it doesn't work exactly the same as before, there are never-ending complaints. The tesla car is an example of an EV that is designed to look and be used exactly like a gasoline car, and it has tremendous cost, low efficiency and high resource consumption to produce. Humans are mostly not rational.

    As it is I live in a country completely full of fossil fuel addicts (consuming at least 20 times as much energy compared to other countries with longer life spans and healthier lifestyles). Never mind the fact that if the USA were to stop imports its proven reserves would be depleted in 6 years, no one wants to hear about this. The scientists are predicting more and more what you describe: war and chaos.

    It seems the breakdown will not happen everywhere at the same time. Ukraine is really a resources war, and so there it has begun. In other regions, and in history scarce resource causes conflict. If many people in india had american lifestyles years ago, they would have already needed a major conflict to occur there.

    The crushing issue is: emissions from now until 2050 will not significantly impact weather until much later. Meaning if we cut emissions to zero, or emit more than ever, the climate will be roughly the same over the next 30 years. The impact from decisions now will take place much later, after the decision makers alive today are long gone. There is a huge time lag as oceans absorb CO2 and heat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2022
  8. Flotation
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    Flotation Senior Member

    Perhaps you should have thought more when you said "Let me show you what this mathematician has foreseen, when thinking deeply about the cause that drives world's population" about a picture that talks about out how immigration changes the number of people in a country, not the world as a whole. For context: we were talking about your erroneous calculation on how long it would take for the whole world to be covered in solar panels. There should have been no confusion on the topic.
    You have got to be kidding me, your start discussions ranging from the price of chicken meat, foil efficiency, immigration, abortion and now you are asking me to start a new thread?
     
  9. seandepagnier
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    seandepagnier Junior Member

    I suggest we remain on the topic of "issues of electric propulsion" but some of these issues are intertwined. As for chicken meat: it can cost a fortune for all I care. I have never bought it and have no plans to. If the price is higher because fossil fuels are unavailable: this is an additional benefit. It would encourage all the people who eat chickens to raise them instead and produce a much higher quality meat that isnt slimy and disgusting like industrial chickens. I for one refused to eat chickens at age 6 (because of how slimy industrial chicken is) and received a lot of punishment and discrimination for this which only further radicalized my opposition.

    Maybe it is good to pretend to punish people for making sustainable choices to cause them to make more? For example, put up signs everywhere saying electric boats are dangerous for not being loud enough, or argue against solar with the only basis of 'solar panels look dumb' etc.

    Foil efficiency is relevant especially in the context of electric boats. What I wonder about the candela boat is why it does not have some form of sail? Maybe it cannot always utilize the sail power, but there are for sure times when sail power could be utilized especially on days with high winds. This could reduce some of our doubts about its sustainablity.
     
  10. Flotation
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    Flotation Senior Member

    Not necessarily. For example I changed my heating from gas to a heat pump while at the same time investing in floor heating at some parts of the house and better insulation and extra solar panels. As a result my house is now more comfortable than it was before. While becoming a net energy producing unit as the extra solar panels I installed more than cover my electricity usage.

    Same for electric cars, many people enjoy the smooth and quiet ride they offer.

    Unless we start emphasizing the positive aspects of the energy transition people will not want to change. And without the will to change nothing will happen.

    Edit, we cross posted but this part perhaps needs a place in this reply:

    Some reverse psychology might work :):D:rolleyes:o_O:p:cool:
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2022
  11. Alan Cattelliot
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    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    Who has posted this ?
    upload_2022-9-18_7-9-29.png
    What's the text of the title of this graph, again ?

    I used the example of the price of the chicken meat to emphasize the fact that the issue with all electric is not only the technical feasibility of using electricity in general, but because the price of electricity has some important consequences to our everyday life. In a ideal world, decisions are to be made taking into account all the consequences of our proposal. The consequence of the proposed raised of the price of the kWh has to be illustrated with a practical example that concern most of the people. Foil efficiency has to be explained for people who are not familiar with these that these systems are not a panacea to our issue of reducing our energy consumptions, because if, again, you put more parameters in the equation, it is obvious that the advantages they offer are bound to a very little field of application, which is already observed, judging by the ratio of foiler to non foiler crafts in the world. On top of that, any abusive communication should be denounced, for the right balance to be maintain in every reflexion on the subject of energy consumption. When I gave you a publication on the world energy consumption, you argue that the world population will reach is maximum in 2100. Always inviting you to keep the track with the subject of the energy, I showed you what could be the cause of such topping, and, never given up with the subject of the energy, I add the important remark that, even if the population would stop increase at the present rate, our main concern should be the energy consummed per people, which is developped in the second part of this reply, after having made some preliminary statements and recall in the first part.

    The GNAGNAGNA company uses a cheap media campaign based on shocking with numbers un-correlated. Personnaly, I don't work with people doing this, and their bad behaviour should be highligted, amplify, and oppose. Foils are for ligtht boat sailing fast. In no way a passenger boat will correspond to this description. That is why so few are equipped with this system, because they are no light boats. Military applications requires minimizing the risks for any operating vehicules. That is why, also, so few foilers exist for military application, because they are too much risky. On the opposite Racers, whose live depends on communications, and whose success depends on being faster than the second,, have an excellent marketing and performance tool with these foils. They are big, they are strange, they start discussion on forum with people who are not familiar with these, and lastly, they can make your light carbon-epoxy non recyclable boat as a winner in races where all the material, the participants, and the fans have to travel world wide from week to week, spending more and more energy. For the beauty of the sport, it surely is interessant. But from a rationnal point of view, this like warming a house with the windows opened. Your vision about the existing companies that relies on bad bad bad bad bad fossile fuel makes you believe that these companies have waited the moralist discourse of one part of the civilian society who has just discovered in the last 20 years that one should regulate its consumptions, in general. A company makes profit by minimizing its costs. Everywhere, everytime. I would'nt talk about the Concorde airplane, nor the hoovercrafts , whose advantages have made most of them a piece of history, that one can see in museum, now.

    Companies do make profits in selling more and more to people unable to restrict their consumption, fooled by advertising who is playing with our basic instincts to make us buy. We are responsible of the rapid oil depletion in the world, and we are responsible for a crazy use of any kind of energy, or materials. Companies makes their jobs, in giving what people want. We shall not delegate our responsability in the present situation. Images are widely used today for the message to be sent directly into our cortex while removing the deep reflexion that we shall have. These images come in addition with lexical formulas on which language can be also tricked, in order to missguide debates. My law professor, who are expert on playing with words and discourses, opened my eyes when she explained to us that we were tricked and manipulated by the language. They gave us the example of the word "charges", that was introduced in France in the 60's by politicians to re-qualify some direct taxes that people used to pay. These taxes were used to be called "public contribution", and a majority of people were proud to pay their "public contribution". But since the moment they have been called "charges", it has become evident for everybody that charges shall be alleviated, because of the burden they represent. The same goes for the word "clean" put in front of "war" to justify the first persian war engaged against Sadam Hussein. And sadly, the same goes with the word "green" put before "energy" or "technology". It is not that there are or they are not better for the environnement indeed, it is that the systematic use of "green" is a shortcut very convenient for people who, in majority, consider that having deep reflexion on technical subjects is out of their league, preferring instead trusting pre-established "truth". One issue with the "all electric" concept is not the concept itself. It has been proven, in theory, since the XIX century, that electricity has the better energy conversion ratio, among the others. The issue comes with skipping in people's mind the right behaviour they should have, considering all the facts that are being debated today : our consumption need to be lowered. Because, after having replaced all the devices that uses today fossil fuel, any continuous increase of more and more electric devices in our everyday life will still increase the pressure we put on the environnement. Using "responsible" + "mining" will keep people conscience clean when providing sufficient raw materials, but I'm afraid that our Nature could be, one more time, in great danger, if no real change in people's behaviour is made. This will be the subject of my next posts, trying to share with you the portrait of a world with a true conscience of its environnement, in its whole. Which is what should be made when considering the systematic use of electricity.
     
  12. Flotation
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    Flotation Senior Member

    Yes, thank you, this has been what most reasonable people in this thread, including myself, have been repeating over and over again. Reduction of the amount of energy consumed per person should be our main goal.

    Glad you are shifting towards reality as far as sailing boats are concerned.

    Time for the next step towards reality.

    Long before they became more common in the sailing world foils have been successfully used to make ferries more efficient. Literal hundreds have been built, many are still in use today.

    Well known are the ones designed by Boeing, later licensed to Kawasaki:
    [​IMG]
    The "Voskhod" type has been produced the most, more modern versions of this design are still in production.
    [​IMG]
    At this moment Candela is producing the C-8 an 8 passenger boat weighing 1605 kg capable of a speed of 23 knots while using 16 kW of power and 30 knots with 37 kW. Which proves they are capable of building a lightweight efficient, foiling electric craft.

    What will be put on the water in 2023 is the Candela P-12 Shuttle: P-12 - The Fastest Electric Ferry https://candela.com/p-12-shuttle/
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    You can keep denying this is craft cannot possibly be a more efficient alternative to the many ferries currently using fossil fuels in the Stockholm archipelago, reality will prove otherwise.
     
  13. Alan Cattelliot
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    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    At this point of the talk, there should be easy for everyone who is sailing around the world to make their own conclusion. Don't you think ? If people are willing to spend their money on marginal project, it is their concern. I have already made my point in details. You have made yours. I think that you have your reality, the market has another one. The history also. I won't tell you how much times I spend working on foilers on true cases -working boat, racing boats, cars winglets - , so I won't go easy on public money being spend on futile projects, surfing false communication to promote their ideas, neglecting true solutions. I won't go easy on folks opening their mouth in big without having in their bag a minimum of experience on the subject they intend to develop. If you so badly wish to restart again our conversation and be a burden, why don't we re-start again the conversation in relation with the post, by listing the issues with electric foiling ?

    Unlike you, Flotation I won't give pseudo "solutions", because
    1 - the subject is about issues
    2 - a solution is adapted to a specific case and won't fit anything else
    3 - only history will tell
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2022
  14. Flotation
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    Flotation Senior Member

    This simply is not true. Many of the thousands of islands in the Stockholm archipelago are inhabited but not connected by bridges and car free. There is an extensive network of passenger ferries connecting them and many people use private boats to get around. Also to get to and from their work.

    The beauty is many of these island are car free, people just walk or use a bike. If they can be connected with an efficient craft using renewable energy it could be a perfect example for what is possible in a society not using fossil fuels for much of its transportation.

    Edit: image of part of the ferry network. You can see most of these islands don't have bridges connecting them:[​IMG]

    Do you have a source on this? It's hard to believe as the Aptera is so much more efficient and lacks many of the gimmicks "conventional" electric cars have.
    Yes, copper mining pollutes. But we also talked about how reduction in copper usage in vehicles is possible. And how vehicles can be used more efficiently by more people instead of letting them stand still, unused, the vast majority of the day. These measures will reduce the amount of copper needed drastically.

    Some mines pollute much more than others, proving the process can be improved. Many measures can be taken tot reduce the total impact of copper mining.

    In combination all these measures on the vehicle and mining side can reduce pressure copper puts on our environment instead of increasing it by 30 fold like you suggested.

    About the horrible Panguna mine on Bougainville Island and how things might improve there:

    Do you have a source on this? I've seen different stories. It's kind of hard to believe as the mine closed 33 years ago. Many politicians don't last that long, especially not in a war torn country.

    The energy problem is complicated enough as is. Disinformation won't help us any further. People need to be convinced solutions can be found that work, and they exist.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2022

  15. Flotation
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    Flotation Senior Member

    Yes, the vast majority of people don't use boats for their daily commute, to go shopping or visit family. In that regard what Candela is doing can be considered a fringe project.

    But this is not car or bike or train or bus or subway or airplane- design.net. We are on boatdesign.net. And some people use boats to get around in their daily life.
     
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