The Issue with going all Electric

Discussion in 'Electric Propulsion' started by jehardiman, Sep 5, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Alan Cattelliot
    Joined: Jul 2021
    Posts: 262
    Likes: 71, Points: 28
    Location: La Rochelle (Fr)

    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    1 T was the optimal of an ORMA trimaran, my friend.... See the little weenees on the floats ?

    upload_2022-9-17_9-22-8.png


    I guess that you haven't seen IMOCA's boats riding the oceans. If you cannot stop looking at the futur through your computer, like an bohemian in her crystal sphere, why don't you compared the foiling ACCs -which clearly sail above the water- and an IMOCA ? What do you see about their foil configuration ? What is the difference with an IMOCA configuration ?

    I guess that you haven't take a look at the internet website paleo-energetique.org. If so, you would have seen all the electric technologies that were already in use in the past, and abandonned.

    I guess that you haven't read science history for a long time. If so, you won't say "You can't deny science and technology at times move forward instead of backwards" like a Krishna monk reciting his mantra. Sometimes, technologies like some of those of Nikolai Tesla, are so advanced that societies do not even understand them . Would you count that case for technology regression ? And when the city of Paris used electric vehicules between 1922 and 1925, and then go back to petrol vehicules, do that count for a technology regression ? Right after the discovery of the radioactivity, some charlatan sold some of these substance to be hang in necklaces that were supposed to heal people. Do you count this one for a technology regression ?

    Let me clarify a little bit and give more perspective in your talk, Flotaison, that is quite touching, because you have faith that the technology is always good to people and that science do not make mistakes sometimes. You imagine that the science and the technology are two goddess, walking together hand into hand, the path of modernism. Frankly, I must admit I really like this image, although it is only an image and nor science nor technology have legs, or wheels, or paddles, or sails, or kites, or propellers, or jets, or scram jets, or ion jets... Rather than "move forward" or "move backward", I may prefer, in our context, use "progress" or "regression". Is every "new" technology is a progress ? Is every "old" technology a regression ?

    Things will change is true. The entropy principle says so. In fact, changes are inevitable. But your grandson just missed a true philosophical statement : "Things will change, sooner or later, for better or worth".
     
  2. Flotation
    Joined: Jan 2020
    Posts: 172
    Likes: 32, Points: 28
    Location: Canada

    Flotation Senior Member

    In your original comment, which you edited almost 12 hours later, your distinction between ORMA and IMOCA classes was totally unclear. And even if it had been totally clear: the last race under ORMA class rules was in 2007, modern state of the art ocean going tri's are fully foiling. Which still makes your "So, my point of view if that there is no real gain in making a boat totally fly, except having a new selling point" in conflict with today's reality.
    [​IMG]
    Those differences are explained by class rule differences based on stability demands and control systems, not physics.

    As for the rest of your comment in response to "You can't deny science and technology at times move forward instead of backwards" You clearly missed the point of some of those words.
     
  3. Alan Cattelliot
    Joined: Jul 2021
    Posts: 262
    Likes: 71, Points: 28
    Location: La Rochelle (Fr)

    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    Yes, we didn't want our soil to be polluted, but we are ok for soils of other nations to be polluted. That's sad, sad, sad,... but, as long as it will exist people in other countries who have not these care about pollution... Or people foolable by the lure of profits....

    National status of regulations has been a very long debate since the CECA (1950), the very first European Union. There is probably most appropriate forum for you to develop this idea.


    Ok, thanks, i'm feel better. You know, after hearing the President of the EV Developpement Association saying that the new batterie technologies was so costfull that renting solutions were created, I almost had an heart attack !


    Mine Site Assessment Tool, from Responsible Mining Foundation https://www.responsibleminingfoundation.org/
    (extract of the only two sections in relation with water)
    upload_2022-9-17_10-17-54.png

    I see no clear definition of the term of "water" used for this assessment. Have you made this document, Flotation ? What could be these monitoring points ? What is to be monitored ? Why is there no specific indications of the groundwaters ? Can monitoring point exclude the analysis of ground waters ? Are all the monitoring point located in the site, or in its vicinity ? Do the polluant of a mine accumulate in monitoring point ? .... Have you ever opened the ISO 14001 Standard ? Have you ever had discussion with Quality Managers of highly polluting industries ?

    Sorry, i just applied basic arithmetics based on the talk of the mathematician I presented to you. My calculations are not wrong, my friend. You have everything in my post to re-do yourself the calculations. Show me yours if I'm wrong ! Ah, yes, I forgot. You are saying that my calculations are wrong, because, in your crystal sphere, you just see that we will peak the number of people on this earth, and that the people in 2100 won't be crazy and won't use more mineral per person than we are today. :) All your talk is based on selecting potential conditions and technologies that would apply in this conditions. Aren't you familiar with the concept :
    "Hope for the best plan for the worst ?"

    Do what you want to do, Flotation. Similar projects are on the table in France. It will be a pleasure to be with you at a public debate about responsible mining in my place! You don't really understand the importance of water on this planet, do you ? You don't really know how the water get polluted, do you ? You are not familiar with how the water circulate on this planet, do you ? Must important, You don't really know what we don't know about the water, do you ? If you don't, just do one thing : Don't f..k with water.
     
  4. Alan Cattelliot
    Joined: Jul 2021
    Posts: 262
    Likes: 71, Points: 28
    Location: La Rochelle (Fr)

    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    Around the world sailing record - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Around_the_world_sailing_record

    Just look at the fastest sailing boats on the planet, my friend. See these little weenees on IDEC 3.
     
  5. Alan Cattelliot
    Joined: Jul 2021
    Posts: 262
    Likes: 71, Points: 28
    Location: La Rochelle (Fr)

    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    We are not talking about class rules, we are talking about foil configurations on monohulls...

    It surely has not been really fun to comment this sentence, who is like "Sometimes it rains, sometimes not"...
     
  6. Flotation
    Joined: Jan 2020
    Posts: 172
    Likes: 32, Points: 28
    Location: Canada

    Flotation Senior Member

    Back to the topic of this thread:
    "Conventional" battery electric vehicles use about 2.5 to 4 times more copper than their counterparts with internal combustion engines. It's not for nothing all serious plans to improve our environment put emphasis on resource need reduction. Less conventional vehicles and different ways of using them make that possible.

    Take the Aptera for example:
    [​IMG]
    Much more light and aerodynamic than a conventional car. So it can do with a much smaller motor and batteries.

    Younger people in urban environments don't see cars as the status symbols they used to be. Car ownership is a nuisance. This, combined with the fact cars spend most of their life standing still, makes a transition to "transportation on demand" logical.

    When more people use the same vehicle more efficient use of the materials needed for their construction is possible. An interesting development is how a new electric car company will deliver their vehicles to owners in combination with a website and an app. People can use these to rent out their car to others they trust and select in their neighborhood. This way they earn back some of their money and less new cars need to be build for people that use one only occasionally. Many more ways exist to reduce the need for cars, this is just one interesting example.

    The Panguna mine on Bougainville Island is an example of how things can go horribly wrong. No effort was made to reduce the amount of water used in the mining process and this water was dumped in the environment without any treatment, poisoning large parts of it, still making people sick. The illustrious mining company Rio Tinto exported all profits outside of the country making only a very few local people rich by bribing them. This resulted in a civil war with many deaths. As a result the mine was indeed closed.

    It's also an example of how things can be done differently. At this moment the Human Rights Law Centre in Melbourne is helping the local community on the island to find ways to re-open the mine, assisted with outside knowledge on how to reduce mining waste and the treatment of process water. This time profits will go to the people living there making their long wished independence possible. Profits can also be used to clean up the mess Rio Tinto created.
     
  7. Flotation
    Joined: Jan 2020
    Posts: 172
    Likes: 32, Points: 28
    Location: Canada

    Flotation Senior Member

    That record is from 2016. The maxi i posted a picture of before was way ahead of IDEC 3 when they went for the around the world record last year, until their rudder broke. See the intermediate records on the page below. It's only a matter of time before it will be broken by a fully foiling tri:
    Jules Verne Trophy - Prize for fastest around-the-world yacht trip | WikiZ https://wikiz.com/wiki/Jules_Verne_Trophy
    [​IMG]
    A rather hypocritical remark for someone who spend multiple paragraphs on this very topic only an hour ago.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2022
  8. Flotation
    Joined: Jan 2020
    Posts: 172
    Likes: 32, Points: 28
    Location: Canada

    Flotation Senior Member

    Problem is mining and using fossil fuels and/or materials needed for nuclear fission have a way bigger potential to **** up the water than pumping up brines.
     
  9. Flotation
    Joined: Jan 2020
    Posts: 172
    Likes: 32, Points: 28
    Location: Canada

    Flotation Senior Member

    The foil configurations on these monohulls are the result of class rules.
     
  10. Flotation
    Joined: Jan 2020
    Posts: 172
    Likes: 32, Points: 28
    Location: Canada

    Flotation Senior Member

    About population growth:

    Fortunately there are people way more smart than we are that studied this subject.
    [​IMG]
    Projections of population growth - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projections_of_population_growth

    With all the efforts being made to make our world more energy efficient and the projected decline in population numbers your calculations based on a doubling of our energy use every 29 years for the next 300 years are wrong.
     
  11. Alan Cattelliot
    Joined: Jul 2021
    Posts: 262
    Likes: 71, Points: 28
    Location: La Rochelle (Fr)

    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    At least, in this post, you were able to recognize that projection of the future are to be adjusted towards reality. I guess that you will find similar curves that will show that energy consumption by person will also decrease in the future, that will definitly shows that my hypothetis of calculations - not the calculations - are not correct.

    Believe me or not, but I will be very happy that people won't go crazy on their consumption in the future till the ressources get exhausted, as it has always be the case in the past. And also, if you haven't already seen the youtube link I've post, I must say also that I have a bad feeling about the world population topping. Let me show you what this mathematician has foreseen, when thinking deeply about the cause that drives world's population :

    upload_2022-9-17_12-31-53.png

    A population that is not growing is in decline, my friend. As this mathematician said, we're are more like bacteria in a bottle. We grow, we live. We decline, we die.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2022
  12. Alan Cattelliot
    Joined: Jul 2021
    Posts: 262
    Likes: 71, Points: 28
    Location: La Rochelle (Fr)

    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    The thread is about electricity. No one here is making the apology of fossil fuels. When they're gone, they'r gone. Nuclear Energy has the best energy density for now, and is the safest source of energy. Since I've proposed to have a little chat about introducing the concept of energy density in our conversation, I haven't seen many reactions, although we took a lot of times about foils.

    Energy source is only one part of the proble. The energy density do not fade the concern of many which is that conventionnal electricity uses minerals, rare earth elements, metals. As a result, I don't know if mining for oil or mining for cobalt, manganese, lithium, copper, silver, gold, .... more and more will be more profitable for our environnement. Especially if we do not diminuish our energy needs in the future.
     
  13. Alan Cattelliot
    Joined: Jul 2021
    Posts: 262
    Likes: 71, Points: 28
    Location: La Rochelle (Fr)

    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    Yes, my friend. 2016 ! And we are in .... 2022. And what about the fastest on 24h sailing ? :) :) :) :). Sailing with foils gives advantages at high speeds. But they are very tricky. That's why they will, one day, hopefully before our sun stop, be faster than archimedian boats. We talk about risk, we talk about media, you've got the evidence in front of you that, in real record conditions, the advantages of foils are to be balanced with all the risks that you can encounter in a round the world record.
     
  14. Alan Cattelliot
    Joined: Jul 2021
    Posts: 262
    Likes: 71, Points: 28
    Location: La Rochelle (Fr)

    Alan Cattelliot Senior Member

    Just go and look at Guillaume Verdier internet site, for instance, or in the internet site of Jean Sans, our national expert, to understand the true way the foils on the IMOCAs are used, and how this usage is different from an ACC. We are talking here about principle of use, not about the class of the boats. That's why we can use in our discussion monohulls, trimarans, airplanes, or whatever uses wing profile.
     

  15. Flotation
    Joined: Jan 2020
    Posts: 172
    Likes: 32, Points: 28
    Location: Canada

    Flotation Senior Member

    Last time i checked nuclear reactors in personal vehicles were not much of a success. Even if the world goes into the nuclear direction we will have to get that power into vehicles. Many of the mining problems will stay the same with the added "benefit" of the pollution on fission material mining sites. We would better create a new thread if you want to compare the price difference between the hugely expensive nuclear option and renewable alternatives.
    It was you who derailed the discussion with your baseless accusations against Candela and their use of foils to increase efficiency. We should only be happy nobody jumped on the topic of the price of chicken meat you brought into the conversation.
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.