The Ideal Cruiser - a long range passagemaker

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by D'ARTOIS, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Lazyjack,
    Sorry if I've induced you to confusion, but Radford 14 is not my design, but Graham Radford's. I agree with you about the forward berths, but I imagine accomodation may be altered to some extent to suite a particular owner needs.
    Cheers.
     
  2. LAZYJACK
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    LAZYJACK Junior Member

    No problem Guillermo.
    You are right, interior accomodation is just one of many issues, and often somewhat adaptable.

    However, I found the interior layout from the Chantier Mer design to be very original (and BTW much to my liking, as is the simplicity throughout the boat) and I thought it would be interesting to present it here. Combine this with some simple, easy maintainable systems and not too many electronics and I think this makes a good candidate for a KISS, reasonable budget, longe range cruising sailboat.
    My main dilemma for a one-off long range passage sailer is still between a metal and a woodcore hull (I guess that the design from Chantier Mer would be adaptable to both materials). It seems to me that a woodcore would a/ be simpler and less costly to make (or to have made), and b/ the interior easier to fit out nicely for a DIY-er with some knowledge of working with wood and epoxy (outfitting a metal seems less easy to me - correct me if I am wrong).
    However, in his book "Classic Boat construction" (1999 edition), Larry Pardey is clearly not very hot about epoxies. Now here is a guy who has been long range cruising A LOT over the past thirty someting years, and has a lot of firsthand knowledge about boats and construction for extensive cruising. So when someone like this has reservations about a certain material, this gets me wondering again. It would seem that there are many potential problems with epoxies, amongst other things when used in combination with wood which not many people care to talk about.
    Anyone who'd like to share some thoughts on that?
     
  3. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Yes, I've read also Pardey, and I have to recognize I'm confused.

    Wood-epoxy composites are said to have good fatigue properties and, in spite of still some improvements needed in the testing of such properties (it seems that the cycle rates for typical long-duration tests drive substantial moisture from the test specimens, thereby elevating their strength and fatigue performance), they have been successfully used for tens of thousands of hours, not only in boats but also in wind rotor blades (Most of the available literature in internet is related with this. See: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1824&page=49)

    You may search these forums for 'fatigue'. There are some. Visit:
    http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13174

    I would also like to here from other members with more experience/knowledge on wood epoxy fatigue (Mike Johns?). But probably we shouldn't use this thread for this, but another one focused on the matter, like Mike's one, i.e. Shall we go on with this matter there?

    Cheers.


    Cheers.
     
  4. LAZYJACK
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    LAZYJACK Junior Member

    OK Guillermo, since I am new to this I follow your suggestion to take this epoxy-issue to another thread.

    May I suggest that we set up a discussion such that it is not only limited to technical aspects (you know, a very sophisticated discussion with all kinds of graphs and figures), but also how these technical aspects translate practically for an end-user who plans to build with wood and epoxy.

    IOW, following scenario : someone plans to build a boat which is going to be used for long range cruising. The boat is going to be heavily used (but lets agree on a fairly "classic" program, i.e. trade wind sailing, Mediteranean, Europe, whatever, but obviously no excursions to Cape Horn or Antarctica). A choice has to be made about materials. A wood-epoxy combination (be it plywood, strip-plank, ...) is being considered.

    Question : are there any potential problems in the combination of wood and epoxy regarding durability, which the end-user (the one paying for the boat and using it) should know about and which are not sufficiently adressed by the people advertising the use of these products and construction methods ?

    As you probably guessed, I am not an engineer, builder, designer ... but just such an end user.

    Since the question is ultimately about durability, I suggest to extend this discussion beyond the issue wood epoxy fatigue, and include also potential other problems of using epoxy in combination with woods (delamination, heat deformation,...), or is this the same ?

    Take it to where you consider it appropriate.

    Regards
    LAZYJACK
     
  5. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    We'll keep it here, for the time being, unless D'Artois, the thread starter, decides other thing.

    Here something else on materials discussions from these same Forums:
    Steel vs other materials: http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13852
    Steel vs Aluminium: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5785
    Fiberglass: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11455&page=5
    More on Steel/Aluminium: http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15327
    Ferrocement: http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6683

    At Part 10 of the book "The Nature of Boats" (Dave Gerr), you have a plain language discussion on the various boatbuilding materials. Probably you'll find that book interesting.

    Maybe PAR or Mike Johns could give some further help with this matter.

    I see you own a 41' 1973 S&S, cold molded. A nice boat probably. Could you post some pictures?

    Cheers.
     
  6. LAZYJACK
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    LAZYJACK Junior Member

    Will postsome pictures with pleasure. I have some in my Adobe library. How do I get them inhere?
     
  7. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    When you post, you have an option to upload attachements (look for the "clip" mark).

    Something else on epoxy bonds:
    "The lack of structural durability of epoxy bonds to wood has always been a problem for fabricators of adhesive-bonded wood products intended for service in exterior environments. Although epoxy adhesives develop dry shear strengths that exceed the strength of wood itself, the epoxy bonds fail in delamination once exposed to the severe stresses of water soaking and drying. Recent research at the Forest Products Laboratory (FPL) demonstrated that a hydroxymethylated resorcinol (HMR) coupling agent physicochemically couples to both epoxy adhesive and lignocellulosics of wood to produce bonds of extraordinary structural durability."
    http://www.jcrocket.com/FPL-16Areport.pdf

    Cheers.
     
  8. LAZYJACK
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    LAZYJACK Junior Member

    I try but I don't know if the attachmnts will come thru.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. LAZYJACK
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    LAZYJACK Junior Member

    OK Guillermo. I see it worked.
    The middle picture is when we took the boat in possession 3 years ago. Then two from right after the crash last year. The other 2 are from after the repair.

    Regards
    LAZYJACK
     
  10. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Nice, indeed! Congratulations!
     
  11. LAZYJACK
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    LAZYJACK Junior Member

    Guillermo. This is very interesting.

    I briefly browsed thru the paper (abstract and concluding remarks). Do I understand from this paper that by combining resorcinol as a go between the wood and the epoxy, it may solve at least the problem of delamination ? Is this common practice yet in construction, i.e. in marine use of epoxy and wood (I see this paper was published in 1997)?

    Has such information been confirmed by other studies/laboratories?

    Cheers
     
  12. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    The rule of thumb for long lasting bonds is to use a resin that has an elongation at failure slightly higher than the particular substrate wood, but I'm afraid I do not have enough knowledge in this field, so let's see if someone else shows up with more help.
    Cheers.
     
  13. CaptScot
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    CaptScot Junior Member

    How about a proven long range cruising Troller Yacht with sails known as a Diesel Duck 38? There are many around and very economical to run and sail with many used for bluewater cruising world wide. All are amateur built and the least costliest way to get out there for the average guy.

    A complete set of professional plans 17 sheets (24" x 36") for a low maintenance fiberglass/wood/epoxy Diesel duck 38 by reknown yacht designer George Buehler. Included on rolls are lofted to full-size most hull station molds.

    As much as I planned and looked forward to beginning this interesting, fun as easily do-able project for a long time, at present building a Diesel Duck of my own is not in the cards. Therefore, I am offering for sale for some lucky person these plans for a bargin price and fraction of the original price of $500, plus postage or make offer. The DD38 plans originally sell for $2,295, see links to Buehler website below.

    Also included are two books: Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilder, Boatbuilding by Chapelle. The Diesel Duck is George Buehler's most popular design with dozens of these sturdy homebuilt ocean going boats sailing the world; see links. Buehler's practical design permits an amateur to build a sturdy boat from scratch with ordinary materials, ordinary tools, custom built to your needs and taste, all for a fraction of the price of a new boat. They are also economical to run.

    There is a member group of several Diesel Duck homebuilders sharing info and photos at Yahoogroup's BackyardBoatbuilders2". Buehler's book "The Troller Yacht" would also be a good book to have for building this boat which describes these type of trawler yachts.

    Easy to build, lots of room for liveaboard cruising, and furnished to what ever your imagination can dream up. The oceans of the world will be your oyster, not just reserved for the mega-buck yachts. My email scottcatherine@yahoo.com

    http://dieselducks.com/Jerrys 38Duck-2.html

    http://dieselducks.com/Duck38study.html

    http://dieselducks.com/stock plans.html
     
  14. LAZYJACK
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    LAZYJACK Junior Member

    Diesel Duck

    CaptScot.

    Thanks for your input. Personally I don't see myself crossing an ocean by sail in such a vessel. It lacks real sailing ability. You might use your sails to add some stability or as back up for when you run out of fuel, but this design is essentially an "engine boat", not a "sailing boat".

    Coastal or lake cruising, and providing you don't mind travelling on motor, OK. But longe range sailing. Sorry but, no thanks.

    Phil
     

  15. donncha
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    donncha Junior Member

    I read Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilder a couple of years back and found it very interesting. He has some good sailing yacht plans in it to.

    I like the simplicity and practicality of his designs but a large motor cruiser wouldn't really do me as a long-distance cruiser either. Much better off with sail.
     
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