The good, the bad and the ugly - Steel building methods that is....

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by Wynand N, Aug 18, 2010.

  1. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    You are aggressive, no need to be. Everybody is nice here and your rambling against the names of the members is not very nice nor constructive
    The only way to fix an origami boat is to buy the plans from a known and honest naval architect.
    It will cost you for a 35' around $2,000.00 to $12,000.00 depending of what you ask.
    That is the reality.
    Keep in mind that I don't write that to start a discussion on the price of design. Just a fact.


    Daniel
     
  2. scupper
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    Location: British Columbia

    scupper Junior Member

    If you can find a source of sand and build yourself a sandblasting pot the cost of blasting the steel on the ground shouldn't really be much, the priming has to be done anyway, best do it outside rather than inside the boat after it all closed in, it's a dirty job and you can't really see what you're doing, especially with sand since it's tends to float in the air, I used the black grit and it dropped a bit faster than sand but still hard to do.
     
  3. Skovian
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: Portsmouth, VA

    Skovian Junior Member

    Hello Waterdrop. I like your name.

    The general consensus on this forum is that the origami method needs to have much more internal framing than what Brent claims is necessary. From what I've read in several threads here is that you can pull the shell together relatively quickly. However, you need to have proper transverse framing along with longitudinals to achieve maximum strength for the weight. If you like the look and don't mind scribing the frames to fit, then cutting, grinding, and fitting them, you'll be able to make this type of hull work. However, it will be much more work to do it this way than to build a proper frame and weld the plate to it. Not only that, but it will weigh much more. How much more work or framing or actually anything is a matter of debate, fueled by a lack of information from the designer. Most other designers have basic line drawings available on their web sites, but we don't have any for these origami boats.

    No doubt Brent and others have used these types of boats and put miles and miles under their keels. But after reading several threads it seems that these boats are somewhat lacking in the strength/safety department. They could probably be made a lot stronger and safer.

    The other threads went pear shaped because Brent made a lot of claims that just wouldn't hold water. He explained his version of engineering to people who really know engineering. When they explained that he erred on many things, he became combative and after that, it seems that things got personal. I hope this thread doesn't go like that.

    For your own safety, go back and read the entire thread and just retain the important information. There's lots of it.

    And as for this:
    Another forum member made a few computer models to show what happens when plate is handled like that. Here's the thread, IIRC.
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/classification/transverse-frame-calculation-32584.html

    Again, read the whole thread and try to get the information from it and leave the fighting behind. There's a lot of good information there, too.

    Cheers
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Who said frames need to be angle iron? They are rust traps. Who said frames must be welded to the hull plating?

    Here are some examples of a boat with floating frames, that does not touch the hull plating except in high load areas suck as keel, mast and rudder and is NOT made from angle iron.
    This can also being described as longitudinal framed method - the pics will explain. The boat is a Dix 65, the others I built from same designer all am the same.

    In my view from experience, since you are a lady, the easiest, fastest and cheapest boat to build in your range would be, yes you guessed it, the frameless method v/d Stadt 34. Nice looking boat as well - see blue boat in the photo below :cool:

    BTW, how do I knew you are a women? I have glass balls telling me;)
     

    Attached Files:

  5. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Not true.

    A good prepared, epoxy coated steel boat is the easiest to maintain, compared with all other common materials, except Al.
     
  6. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Apex1:

    Good point with the epoxy... I was thinking traditional. I stand corrected.

    I suppose the 10-15% or 30-40% really depends on the level of interior fit out and fancy "toys." Boats like the recent thread you started where we were choosing hull styling (trawlers, etc...) fit your estimates, I would imagine.

    Smaller, simple cruising boats (with simple systems) fit a little closer to my numbers.

    I have no experience pricing out boats of the size you build, so I don't know those numbers. I have worked aboard some large, 30-40 meter boats and notice the toys are quite expensive on them! :cool:
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    I was referring to the "average" sized and equipped boat in the 36 to 50 ft range, there we see between 15% and 18% sometimes 20% for hull and deck.

    The upper range of our toys can come down below 10% when pools, heli hangars etc are part of the game.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  8. scupper
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    Location: British Columbia

    scupper Junior Member

    Well there are ways around spending tons and tons of money on all these equipment things,
    The "equipment" is where the lion's share of the money is spent:

    *Rigging - 1x7 galv rigging rigged my 36' with it cost 450 bucks for the wire and eyes 330 for the galv turnbuckles all of which is rated well past what I would need for the boat. Mast extrusion cost me 500 built all the fittings from scrap stainless and got used sails for 300, built my blocks for...? not much less than 50 did buy a couple drums of new 1/2" line which was the biggest cost but still under a grand all in all the entire rig cost less than 2k
    *Engines - used engine 1500 used tranny 500 used stainless tanks 100
    *Batteries - new 4 x 125$ each t-105
    *Watermaker? - not a necessity
    *Cushions (interior and exterior) - scrounge those or buy them new for a few hundred
    *Glass/Ports/Hatches - exterior bolted on plexiglass or lexan hatches with a gasket did my whole boat from one 4x8 sheet of 1/2" 380 aluminum submarine hatches under 100
    *Cleats, winches, anchors, lines, etc... - cleats, comon it's a steel boat build your own from scrap stainless, buy used winches they are cheap unless you have to have self tailing, anchors also cheap if found used or can be built but nothing compared to the price of the hull and deck
    *Safety Equipment *Lighting again yes it all adds up but possible to do without spending a fortune
    *Refrigeration - not a necessity

    zincs are 30 buck each I have four.

    A used boat may be a better option, but a lot of boats aren't designed with that kind of budget in mind and will end up costing lots in repairs and upkeep. So far the hull deck and hardware on it (which is all kinda one piece so i'm including it in the price of the boat) is a pretty large share of the cost of a boat. And yes it can be done for under 50k I got mine done for under 40k. You just need to think outside the box a bit and scrounge stuff out, it really does work, i did it. Sandblasting if you do it yourself will be quite cheap I did mine for 850 and 500 of that was the black copper slag, if I had used free sand for the whole thing it would have been even cheaper.
     
  9. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vancouver

    welder/fitter Senior Member

    If you don't have the ability to weld a boat to one method, you don't have the ability to weld to any method. Do you think that Brent's boats are magically more forgiving of poor welding/fabricating practices?

    Though I am not an engineer/NA/designer and, therefore, would not be foolish enough to attempt to correct the many flaws, I wonder why you think that others are responsible to wipe Brent's *** for him, though some have been kind enough to offer.

    Grow up! Build your cheesy boat any ******* way you like and you can spend hours of time talking about it on the origami site. The only ones' who keep screwing up threads by, re-directing them to Brent's monstrosities, are Brent and his flock. Better to keep the evangelistic rant to your own site & spare us the waste of time, until one of you has figured out the math & can offer the world evidence that is more than anecdotal. You truly are just wasting everyones time, here, and you know it!
     
  10. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member


    The quick study was done by me. And not calculations it was a computer simulation of the structure. It's quite accurate. Note that I did include the plating, the deformed loaded case is shown side elevation but the plate is included there.

    This link will take you to the actual post.http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/cl...se-frame-calculation-32584-10.html#post368941

    It is correct. No matter what intuition might suggest otherwise.

    They are considerably stronger if they were sprung and then welded rather than being welded flat then bent with the plate. It's a method of fairing the plate and stops it buckling as it's pulled into shape. But the result is not stronger it's weaker. You can design around that; If they were then supported by transverse frames it would stop or limit the stress transfer that occurs.
     
  11. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    waterdrop is the name brent should have. he never see one.
    i think he is the guy who put beam for the deck, but think it's no good for the hull to have frames. go figure.
    he is for real this amateur.
    we laughed about that with my old pal. we are from the same long distance area, and we recollect good stories, during long and gloomy night.
    i have to take brent's shirt on a card game, then to recoup his shirt, he has to make a promise to put frames on his boats.
     
  12. M&M Ovenden
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    M&M Ovenden Senior Member

    Hi,

    This is a bit off topic, but with the talk of cost vs size I thought I'd post something.

    "A new boat, custom or stock, invariably turns out to be more expensive than one thinks it will be. For this reason, the standard advice is to choose a type and size that is just right for the pocketbook and then actually order one 10 to 20 percent smaller. I think this is a terrible idea. I would say instead that one should find a design one can afford and then order a boat that is larger by the same 10 to 20 percent. Where will the extra money come from ? It is very simple: omit all frills and nonessential equipment that can be added later. All else equal, the bigger boat will be prettier, faster, more comfortable, and more able and thus will give a bonus in pleasure out of proportion to the percentage increase in size."

    - Aurthur Beiser, "The Proper Yacht" page 30, near the bottom.

    If boats are your passion, attempting to make non emotional decisions is foolish. Things will work out in the end, they always do.

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  13. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member


    The standoff transverses would be the easiest method for a bent up flat sheet origami, when adding the transverses.

    If a chined hull has straight runs in cross section then it can be transversely framed easily after the plating is pulled together, then you start with some widely spaced frames to give support for the shape and add the rest when the hull is completed.
    In my view that's a much better way than having shape derived from highly residual stressed plates.

    The strongest method will be longitudinally framed over widely spaced transverses and that's best built frame first, for a welld esigned chined hull the plate goes on quickly and easily if it's all well designed. No double curvature in the forefoot for example.
     
  14. bearflag
    Joined: May 2010
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    bearflag Inventor/Fabricator

    ::thumbsup::

    If you have a seaworthy boat, you can always add fancier cabinetry and couches and all that other stuff later and start calling it a yacht.

    But if your boat is tragically undersized the only thing you can do is sell and start building new.
     

  15. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I know of boats that had a very crude and minimal fitouts and cheap motors and junk yard equipment that were cruised that way for a few years until they had the cash to do it properly.
    One of them had a fantastic fitout of the main part of the interior done in Indonesia for less than $20k after 3 years of extensive cruising with crappy plywood bunks temporary cabin soles and plastic water containers as water tanks etc. Although initially with a womans touch and rugs and wall hangings they made it look like home.

    I've met ather boat ( 45 feet) that never had more than the cabin soles put in and everything was in that one big cavity, he lived alone and cruised the Pacific extensively working as a cook and even a caretaker for a year or two at Palmyra atoll. I think the Hull and rig and engine had exhausted the available funds but he was very happy and really loved his boat.
     
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