The Future of Formula 40 Trimarans

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Skip JayR, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,939
    Likes: 175, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Marketing

    As a marketing guy, you should find this little posting interesting

    Conservative Label
     
  2. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,912
    Likes: 62, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    when you lift a big cat/tri out on foils, what happens to the stability re C of G etc?
     
  3. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    rig alternatives for Formula 40...

    What a big thread... it seems many people are interested in this thematic. I suppose you are talking about Philip Maise, right ?

    ... he made a demonstration video of the 65 Trimaran Hot Buyos... interesting.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JSH1s6aGEQ


    I like "free flying sails" without fixing the foot of the sail on a main boom. Very often used nowadays on racing boats and since longer on racing Trimarans, too. Still used till today, e.g. on the very successfully Diam24 one design class produced in France.
    [​IMG]

    But back to the topic of this thread: I suppose this main sail free rig thematic won't infiltrate the "Formula 40" class if it should experience a revival. :). It needed a tremendous re-education of sailor's brains who are used traditionally cutter sloop rigs.

    Personally I like the concept of an A-Mast (as I like to call it) on Trimarans. The new windrider "Rave 5" shall come along with from 2016 on... similarly kind of "Twin Rig" as we know it on Catamarans... more details here: http://bit.ly/1LQpDba
    [​IMG]

    Yet I didnt go into this thematic en-detail, still collecting all datas silently.

    I have seen some scientific analysis by "fluid computer modellings" of this Twin Rig. Its impressive. Not at all the sails on both masts are disturbing each other as many like to argument against such "alternatives".

    Does exist a scientifically approach to get an understanding about the effects onto the sails with an Aftmast rig and boat stability ?
     
  4. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Foil systems...

    I suppose this technically question is addressed to the "Foiling Guru" of this Forum :) . DougL could answer it best probably.
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/profile/doug-lord.html

    The foil system being used nowadays can balance a boat in 3 dimensions by adjusting them in 3 ways... and herewith can move actively the center of gravity forward and backwards:

    1. elevator lift system for up/downlifting the foil
    2. moving the foil forward and backwards (rake control)
    3. change the angle of attack of a foil

    There are two nice videos by the technical editor of YachtWorld, Matthew Sheahan... giving an excellent demonstration about the foil trimm units on board of the AC45 of BAR team.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrPYsOhRj4I


    ... and the new Cat foiling class Whisper to understand how foils do their job for amateur sailors. Not too difficult with little bit training...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opxXm8Oub0A


    Beside the foils there comes an extra trim unit into the game on Cats and Trimarans, which are very urgent. Its the T-rudder (centralized, or two t-rudders fixed on the amas) to avoid pitching of the bow.
    [​IMG]

    The foiling GC32 has T-rudders (a one design class which will replace the old cats of the Extreme sailing series from 2016 on).
    From 02:04 in the vid on you can see an animation of the foil trim system, inclusive the upper named elevator lift system. Very simply mechanics controlled by sheets.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wji28IFANA


    On bigger catamarans in the future there will come computer added sensor systems to trim these units automatically during cruising at high speeds >20 knots, alternatively pressing the button for manually trimming in racing modus.

    The target of modern foiling is to uplift the boat only very little above the water surface... so there are no big gravity forces to handle as we see it only on some few boats. - The foiling sailors tell that the boats are more quietening, it is a very relaxed sailing without noise as soon a sailor has learnt to use the trimming tools.

    Foiling became "more easy" over last 1-2 years as French professional multihull sailor Frank Cammas has proofed with the 2nd Flying Phantom generation... and stated in the interview from 02:00 (English subtitle).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F93rsEFmQ8


    In ~10 years it will be "daily business" for amateur sailors to press the button and let fly bigger catamarans/trimarans by well trimmed foil systems. I have no doubt about this.

    I dont see big problems coming up with as the air plane industries are using (automated) trim units since long at much higher wind speeds and forces... keeping 270 tons (A380) stable in the air. 4-5 tons Catamaran/Trimarans will be more easy to handle.

    If the Formula 40 Class should experience a revival, by sure it will be re-designed with a foil-assisting system, T-rudder, wave piercing bows. Makes sense to increase the speed. It wont be too costly...
     
  5. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Pimp up your Boat !

    In automotive industries this is well known... at the end "she" makes the decision which car will be bought for the family. He pays, she drives. :p

    No problem, Brian. Here we talk about 40 Foot Trimarans... so max. weight is 4 tons... the Gunboat foils can handle this weight already, safely.

    So the future market for Foil specialists is not the "new boat building" market. It is the "used boat market" to pimp up boats.

    Think about all the existing catamarans and trimarans out there in the size of 20-30 foot... actually for now they are limited by the righting moment of the amas. If they'd get foil assisting units the owners can enjoy them for longer.
    With a "pimp up foil kit" these boats can carry bigger sail areas, or at least, they can speed up with the existing sails plan, e.g. using 2nd reef instead of 3rd reef etc. ...

    The Foil industries is already working on such "kits"... as I know because I just let proof from such specialists some Trimarans I have an eye on to buy to get an idea about the costs of such a refitting.

    Lets see... In marketing we learn that even the best brands cannot judge 100% about their customers. It will need detailled market research studies to analyse the potentials of this market and to understand if there is a trend.

    At least its worth to take a closer look at and do the analysis.
     
  6. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,912
    Likes: 62, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    who needs wave piercing bows when you are foiling?
     
  7. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,912
    Likes: 62, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    how about the gunboat that fell over, it had less righting moment when foiling and hence at a very small angle of heal it fell over.
    So the trifoiler got it right 20 years ago, you must be upright or else?
     
  8. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    foiling or foiling...

    there are two levels of foiling:

    (A) The fully foiling (as we know from the Gunboat G4).
    (B) The foil-assisted trim.

    E.g. you can see (B) during the sea trials on the test boat of Gitana Sailing Team they did over summer.
    [​IMG]

    Gitana targets at to build a new 100-110 foot Maxi trimaran, which can go both: (A) and (B). - It depends on the safetyness level one needs...

    E.g. a solo sailor will use the foil-assisted trim, while a fully crew with two watches can race on a more radically and extremly level of performance with fully foiling/uplift.

    For amateur sailors I'd see the Formula 40 Tris as an excellent boat to compete as solo sailor... in foil-assisted modus. For such a modern trim, it needs good physical shape, but not that extremly hard fitness training as professional sailors going through to race on the edge in fully foiling modus.

    Wave piercing bows make sense for (B) as it is not a full flying modus.
     
  9. Skip JayR
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/

    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    There had been gone lots of discussions after the capsizing in spring 2015...
    [​IMG]

    What I know as the crew reported it themselfs by analysing the accident, that it was their own mistake. They didnt open by time the traveller. Foils cannot compensate all mistakes done by humans.

    Look at the first foiling test of Timbalero (so the name of this boat)... and one can see, that they slowly narrowed the pure uplifted status.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5-OtUhTOQ


    You can sail such a boat keeping it on the safely side... there is enough leeway to keep all very stable. If you push it to the limit, its just one moment, e.g. by an unexpected gust the whole balance is gone.

    You mean Hobbies Trifoiler with Twinrig ?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXSgZCDVWOM
     
  10. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,235
    Likes: 73, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Do we really?

    The biggest foiler class, the Moth, has about 350 members, compared to the 10,000 or more members in some other classes. The Moth class also reports little or no membership growth, and after a decade of foiling it is only strong in two parts of the world (NSW and the UK). In comparison, there are 5,000 active French ballasted yachts racing under HN alone, and some 18,000 or so boats claimed to race under US PHRF alone. A good day at Torbole gets out 1400+ windsurfers. Laser world titles are restricted to about 1500 boats. There are about 900 active boats in the ancient gaff-rigged 12 Foot Dinghy class, which is growing again at over 100 years of age. Compared to those numbers, the total foiler fleet (while fantastic) is tiny.

    Far more conventional boats are being built than foilers. The RS Aero seems to be the top-selling new singlehanded dinghy. In many countries, and at world titles, old one design versions of the Moth having fleets that are as big or bigger than the foilers. The Nacra class reports that they have stopped building the Olympic foiler.

    None of this is saying that foilers are not wonderful, but they are a tiny, tiny part of the sailing community. The classes that are cheaper and more practical are the ones that are popular.
     
  11. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,235
    Likes: 73, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    In the racing I've done on tris against big monos, we had no chance to laze around. Lying back on the tramp drinking beer is fun, but if you want to win against hot competition you're more likely to be trimming, or sleeping so you can race hard later. And if you look at the vids from the monohulls in the same race, you see no one "hiking steadily" - people were lounging on sails and taking pics. Congratulations to Spirit, but the Ambon event is a casual, extremely low-key race in light winds and flat seas that doesn't prove much. In the Brisbane-Gladstone they were beaten by smaller cats and barely beat smaller cruising cats home.

    I never got the impression that Kathy and Ian were "stress free" when they were racing big monos in their offshore F40 Bullfrog, and from the fact that they went as far as chopping down their toothbrushes I don't think it was very comfortable. Certainly when I was lucky enough to meet Frank Cammas and others and look over their boats after the OSTAR they did NOT look "stress free". Any boat from a Laser to a TP52 can be relaxed and stress free, IF the conditions are mild and you don't want to win against comparable and competitive boats.

    Personally I've never really seen the point about getting excited about going past bigger monos. We do it in our cat too, but so what? Our cat is rated faster than lots of much bigger racing tris and monos - but who really cares? Kites can go past us too, and Moths can go past Tornadoes and A Class cats, but who cares? Some people like certain types of boat and others like other types that go faster or slower - so what?

    To be honest from the way you insult people in your posts, and the way you talk about going past other boats, it seems as if what you really want is to prove that you are better than the owners of TP52s and modified F40s. Why not just let them like their own boats, without sneering at them? For someone who claims to not want to compete against other people, you seem to spend a lot of time saying that you are better than others.
     
  12. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,235
    Likes: 73, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Years ago I was in Newport RI when the OSTAR finished. There was no shortage of money there. Some guys have said that the real cash in France is in multis and shorthanded races and the big maxi races are just casual affairs for the pros. I don't know whether it's correct but it's an interesting thought. Certainly at the moment there's a lot of cash being thrown at the AC.

    If there's a lack of interest in old multis maybe it's just an issue with the way multihull sailors approach their racing?

    By the way, there's are active bunches of rich guys racing old open wheelers, and the second-highest price ever paid for a car at auction was for a 1954 F1 car.
     
  13. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,754
    Likes: 182, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    Just out of interest I had a chat to Ian about Bullfrog a while back and he noted that on launching they were dead on 2 tonne in full Cat 1 spec. Mighty impressive I thought and so different to what she has sadly become more bloatfrog than bullfrog now.
     
  14. rogerf
    Joined: Apr 2012
    Posts: 58
    Likes: 3, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 32
    Location: port stephens

    rogerf Junior Member

    In France, before a multi race the crowds along the shoreline can equal those of a footy grand final - regardless of the shape of ball.
     

  15. hump101
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 261
    Likes: 14, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Brittany, France

    hump101 Senior Member

    In France the large crowds are at specific events - RdR, Vendee, TJV, TdFaV, Mini, etc., not specifically multi events. Crowds can be in the millions. Where the sailors get real coverage is on television here, things like Jules Verne attempts, and the big races are followed daily on TV, with daily updates in the main news, and live feeds for starts, finishes, and other areas (usually cape rounding where a chopper can reach the boats). Video and audio feeds from the boats are also used where possible, so the sailors are interviewed live on the news programmes. This gives the sponsors the coverage they need, and the TV does it because they know the public are interested.

    It's not specifically a multi thing. The French non-sailing public are interested in extreme performance, and in sailing at the moment the extreme performance means a multi, but if someone comes up with an alternative design that could challenge the multi's, then it would also get coverage here.

    It's worth noting that the French are not spending a fortune on the AC, unlike the other participants. The Groupama budget is only similar to an Ultime campaign, with a shorter duration, and it will be interesting to see whether the AC gets similar coverage here. People are interested because it is Cammas/MichDej/OdK, but the AC itself does not seem to generate much interest as it is just round the cans racing.

    Tying this back to the thread title, I'm one of the (lucky?) people who owns an old F40, albeit a cat not a tri. I specifically bought a boat from 85/86 that has accommodation, has a structure that can go offshore, and like all real F40's can be demounted in a day and transported in a container. This combination makes the boat extremely flexible, as it can be raced, cruised, and shipped to other places. The later (87-89) boats don't have any accommodation to speak of, and in a 12m boat this kills the secondhand value. The move to inshore racing only by the F40 circuit was what killed it in the end, as this doesn't interest the French public who were footing the bill, and most of the post 89 boats were built to go offshore in non-F40 class racing, but too little too late, with the 60's proving to be better for offshore racing. I was looking for an ORMA60 originally, but my mooring location has limited my choice to an F40, though I am really pleased with the boat.

    That's my take on it, anyway. I watched the boats racing back in 86 and 87, and whilst the boats were fantastic the racing wasn't so much. The class40 mono's succeed because even thought the boats are not so spectacular, the racing is, costs are constrained, and the boats can be cruised and are genuinely seaworthy. Any resurrection of the F40 would need to meet these criteria as well. The fact that 32' cats are struggling to develop sustainable inshore racing series should tell you that a 40' class hasn't got a hope.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.