The Future of Formula 40 Trimarans

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Skip JayR, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. Skip JayR
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    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Different approach to sail racing...

    Stupid kind of racers in my understanding... still the thinking of last century. Personally I race against myself... thats the ultimate target. The "winning attitude" to see the other competitors in a racing fleet as concurrence seems a very nonsense for me...

    You have to find your own strategy offshore... so I see it. Nobody will help you out there (so long you are not a professoinal sailor getting every hour an email from land based support, with advices by professional weather metereologists and race tactic consultants.) - Thats why I am no more interested in Volvo Ocean race as modern technology let look this fleet like "Match racing", seeing each other over days on the horizon. It is a very different spirit behind if you sail against other boats, or just try to find the quickest route from A to B, e.g. as it is done for long distance records.

    I have very different targets in fast sailing: I want be in harmony with mother nature, I want use most efficiently the "natural energy ressources" (e.g. wind energy, termal energy, streams) to come as quickly as possible from A to B. Therefor it needs a fast boat with the option for excellent trimming and max. speed (related to the boat size and its trimming tools).

    So it is more sailing against myself.. and overcoming my own weaknesses, e.g. my fears, my lack of self discipline, my lazyness.

    I dont need other competitors to win against them for feeling good saying: Oh, I have beaten my biggest opponent.

    All what counts for me is learning, steadily learning and optimizing, mostly myself.... and feeling in balance and in harmony with mother nature, even knowing that leaving the harbour means: entering into a medium, which is dangerious and can destroy me... and me as a human regularly I have no chance to survie there.

    Some say: My body is my castle, my healthy body is what I need to fulfill my targets and dreams in life... to keep me healthy in good shape, so I take care for my body. Yes, right...

    ... and as sailor I say. My boat is my castle... as it protects me against dying on high seas, in a very unfriendly environment of salt water and ultra violet light.

    Some boat owners like to misuse a boat, just fulfilling their targets to win and producing lots of trash and damages, mast breaking etc. ... not a very smart form of sailing in my understanding. Look at the owners like Jim Clark of 100 Foot maxi racer Commanche and his direct opponents (front all Wild Oats XI which just was cut to become more competitive) then you will understand what I want say. They steadily pimp up their boats to beat each other. What a nonsense waste of ressources, money and life time. (Rec.: Just under technological aspects these boats are fascinated, but thats all like being fascinated to see a mars mission. But not very sensefully. Big man's toys of super rich guys with extremly big ego.)

    If I can reach my own goals, not being defined by my opponents, then all is fine... and I am thankfully, that my opponents give me the chance to learn from them... maybe they did something better, in a smarter way = sensefully way.

    Maybe this is more the philosophy of long distance racing/sailing I am talking about... very differently from a race match on the regatta circuit front harbour pacing up and down round the boyes.

    I dont see a Formula 40 Trimaran as a boat for afternoon races. It is a good boat for going long distances over many days. E.g. Round island regattas. Or for some hundred miles between 500-1500 nm so good weather tactic and routing planning comes into the game.
     

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  2. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    More than just a few years, corporate France was heavily involved.

    Along with a very heavy interest in sailing by the French public.

    Neither of those two factors are really prevalent in too many other countries, ...if any these days

    If I remember correctly the 'micro-multihull racing class' got pretty strong throughout Europe at one time. I don't know the present situation? I discovered the Dragonfly trimaran in those circumstances, and became the original importer to the USA in 1988.
    It was a wonderful sailing boat, and it was trailerable.

    I would think this size vessel could gain a foothold in a new racing class. But I also think it should NOT be defined as strictly a trimaran, but open to all possiblities. ...just a max length like the micro-multihull class.
     
  3. Skip JayR
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    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    success comes from professionally project management...

    Brian, thats just a rational approach. But by your experience as trader/importeur you know that sales is psychology.

    I worked in strategic marketing consulting for brand building of big corporations. Clearly we can say looking back to the times of F40 beginnings...

    ... it was a tremendously huge mistake to mix Trimarans and Catamarans and to think that its possible to bring them under one roof, defining them with one formula. That is nonsense. But so had been the 80ths. Decisions with potential sponsors had been made on the golf or tennis court. But this kind of marketing decision making changed radically in the 90th.

    Further: A human brain needs a clear picture to understand and to memorize. And a human is making its decisions not rationally, a human is an "emotional being". Otherwise nobody would leave the harbour to go onto high seas and risk own life.

    The new structure at least would need a total new labeling, or in other words spoken, a real well thought and designed "brand architecture", which clearly defines the future newly, by "name" plus "logo". And lots more...

    So it might look like:

    - F40 C+ or F40 Cat+ with the plus as "new future" or "something extra" (as add-on)
    - F40 T+ or F40 Tri+ with the plus as ... " " "

    Again: Trimarans and Catamarans cant be mixed. Two different boats, two different ways of sailing. A truck is a truck, and a limousine is a limousine. Nobody in the world of Automotive industries would call all models they sell under same name. A mini is a mini couper (even owned by BMW). So it works to address adequatly the target groups.

    Such details and sensitive planning is very urgent. It cannot be overlet amateurs anymore.

    Big companies invest more than 100 Thousand dollars in specialists to find the right name for the product, e.g. phonetical expression, phonetical sound, quick memorising during a 20 second advertising clip etc. .... A name can evoke in different cultures different feelings, and not only positive ones.

    E.g. the F40 can be identified by the Ferrari fans who love this specific design... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F40

    Others might be remembered to the airfighter F16, which might provoke very negatively associations thinking about war and crime.

    This detailled proof is urgent, because the future of sailing and sail racing market is Asia, soon will come Africa. Asians have a very different thinking and different emotional patterns they follow in their "likes" and "dislikes" decisions (I know what I am talking about as I am dealing with South Asia since 10 years intensively.)

    I just address here some details what professionls do (and have to do) in the meeting rooms of their highly professionally working project teams. No single detail is just done accidentaly or by luck. It has a method behind which guarantees the success.

    As already been mentioned here by others... it needs a scientifically approach... first a detailled analysis of the past, then an analysis of the present, and 3rd a detailed research about the potentials of the future inclusive a SWOT analysis to avoid risks and burning money/wrong investments. After that a good team can sit together over weeks and write seriously its business plan for aquisitoion of investors in the segment of risk capital.

    The times that a bunch of crazy sailors started a new boat class as it happened in the 80th is gone. We live in 21st century and for bringing up the budget to establish a new F40 Cat+/F40 Tri+ class would need experts in their fields...

    Naturally in such a forum, we can spin around, exchange our thoughs, critics, likes and dislikes... thats all fine and important.

    If the "new F40 class" should come back one day, it depends on a tough team which has all tools of professionalism, and beside these skills and competences it needs a pre-funding and concrete budgeting.. at least for 5 to 10 years.

    Let us remember: The Extreme Sailing Series started in 2005
    [​IMG]

    ... and after 2 years (testing) under the name "Extreme 40s" the project dealed in 2007 with OC Sports, a company specialized in global marketing and event business.

    I dont think, that the F40 Cat+/Tri+ class has the potentials to become competitive on that level. This is not urgently a need. A revival of the F40 Class can look differently.

    Actually we live in times of foiling... thats fact and thats the future, and there the money will be pushed because media coverage is the relevant key factor to attract the masses by spectacles and impressive pictures/footages.

    I dont think the potential clients/buyers for a new re-designed F40 class are interested in this extremly commercialisation. Not really needed.

    Out there are enough wealthy sailors who can afford it to pay such a boat out of own pocket... not urgently required to run around like a "living advertising pillar" with lots of sponsor logos on the sailing clothes.

    Sh*** money making nearby everywhere... more and more people get tired of this over-commercialisation. It can quickly end in a bad and ugly trap as we see with the ugly politics of America's Cup where selfish owners (all front Oracle/Larry Ellison) are driven by egoism not feeling blamed to use tricks and illegal methods. I heard about some very "dirty methods" how the French claimed the businesses for ORMA 60/ MOD70... kind of "national duty" to be Europe's leading nation in Multihull sailing. They will do everything to keep control which I see as an illusion. France is too small as market, we see this with the dying ORMA60s... and the attempt with the MOD70 failed heavily, too.

    Personally I dont want go back into this world of big business... I have experienced it... and its an ugly, dirty, skinky world.... as we just see these days with the VW - Volkswagen Scandal in double sense.
     
  4. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    My source is where we are hence this thread.
    sure some rich guys are career sailors and are very good sailors but that doesnt make a fleet and here we are with keel boat racing versus multi racing, its just not marina space, cranes not travel lifts, yard space etc
    The AC with cats, turned out more exciting to watch but the event has shrunk. What would a sponsor prefer and where is a larger target market,
    The guy sailing his Swan in Porta Cervo regatta or the A cat worlds or any other multi regatta.
    The golden rule on multi's is there is no money, just ask any professional sailor.
    In France if you want any size old racing multi you can most likely get it for free if you take over the storage bill. Does the same situation arise in mono's?
    What does a rich guy buy to race in the historic classics on the track, a saloon car yet an openwheeler from same age is a much higher performance vehicle.
    Whats a 2nd hand F1 car worth from any age, not much, factory limited production saloon car, sometimes millions
    I'd love it to be different but its not.
     
  5. rogerf
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    rogerf Junior Member

    Well, if you only race against yourself why do you need a boat?

    In essence a boat is only a means of transportation, the rest is psychology.
     
  6. Skip JayR
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    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Very one sided assumption, rogerf.

    Some few concepts e.g. the Indian philosophy Vedanta target at giving up the self... to reach the status of ultimate supreme = enlightment. It is an (South-)Asian concept we see reflected in Hindusim and Buddhism.

    Here meditation is the tool and daily deeds/work are exercises to be the example of a good human being. Its not my way to sit like a Yogi on a nail bed to reach the status of supreme conciousness.

    But samea person meditating over hours and days needs the reflection that the mind is binded in a physical structure = body. To understand that the mind has a physical border, the "outer world" which touches us by skin and sense... seperating us from the "inner world". - Monks in monastery know this very well, thats why monks do regular work, too. it is the physical experience.

    The physical self experience as a human is a very essential part how the brain works in a healthy way. Not to forget the spiritual experience.

    Some people need rocks and do climbing, others the under waterworld and do diving... or playing soccer to sweaten within a team running behind a ball to practise and repeat this physical experience from game to game.

    I mentioned in my other posting: "harmony with nature". Or you might say "being one with nature". - I am follower of French Humanism (not the ancient Greek humanism). Here the human is defined as part of nature, where nature is the ruler... and not the human controlling / manipulating / misusing nature (as we see it with modern farming).

    To feel oneself physically by experiencing the elements, wind, waves, streams, change of temperature etc. ... can define oneself. So it works for me. Another must climb on top of mountains to experience this or sit on a mountain bike and race downhill or ride a horse whatever...

    Nature is a good teacher, in my understanding... the overmighty power of mother nature offshore teaches a lot... it demands a devotional attitude, respect and adaption. All those who ignored this got heavily hit and punished. Some even lost their lifes.

    Not to forget the aesthetic aspect... a well trimmed boat which can sail at maximum speed driven by wind energy in the fluid element water is pure joy for me to watch. Sailing is the experience of very different senses.

    The technical aspect a boat represents is fascinating for me... probably this is the part the ratio and intellectual part of a brain is poked. A well designed hull by an experienced naval architect... a good standing sail produced by a sail maker on the basis of an excellent work of a rig master... all targets at to bring a mix of tools together to work together in harmony. The sailor is at the end of this chain to bring all trimming units together the boat can demonstrate its maximum of potentials.

    I cannot explain it rationally... I didnt grow up in a family of sailors. No idea why I am addicted to boats and to Trimarans. Who cares... :) .

    I would not call a boat just a transportation unit.. it is a medium on its own a human can experience and same express himself/herself. And for some it even can be a tool for self healing. But thats another topic we should discuss in an own thread. :)
     
  7. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Well the Seacart 30 is an example of an attempt to build a smaller LoA one design trimaran fleet and while they had a few successful events the circuit soon shut down. The Seacart 26 was touted as a cheaper alternative there are about 6 teams that compete in the circuit so it is hardly a roaring success either but seems to be holding on.

    They seem to be on the right track with the DIAM24 with a well supported circuit that can be campaigned in at moderate cost. I think a DIAM24 is about 55k Euro which has been embraced by a lot of competitors (even an Australian team Team Oz). The DIAM24's are mostly foam sandwich with some carbon uni reinforcement in key areas to keep the cost under control. I know it's probably an unpopular view but 100% carbon construction is a real downer for fleet building as it jacks the cost so much that you go from a potentially popular boat to a niche product at best and it locks out all but the wealthiest potential competitors.

    I'm with you on inshore usage when I was talking about the demountable, container transportable option I was more thinking on avoiding long offshore deliveries that wear out gear and take a considerable amount of time to do. For example it's feasible as an individual to ship your boat in a 40' container to Europe do their qualifiers to compete in their offshore season and back to Asia to do the Asian circuit.

    Rob Denney's thoughts on being able to transport 4 x Bucket List proas in a 40' container for an instant class at any event seems like a winner if you can get enough people interested to share the costs.
     
  8. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    If you remove the racing context of the F40's then a practical 40' cruiser or performance cruiser/racer trimaran would look somewhat different. Less beamy due to the cruising gear adding to weight and removing the need for extreme beam to compensate for lost righting moment, more accommodation and it wouldn't be unpleasant to sail just not quite as fast. A good example is Paradox she has a 50' beam rather than 60' and the same amount of righting moment due to the extra weight of cruising gear and fitout. Still more extreme than most people would tolerate but a capable cruiser/racer.

    To my mind the race car analogy is quite good driving a street registered racing car wouldn't be much fun because they are for different purposes. In my road car I'd value things like quietness, comfort and a good stereo and room for the kids in the back and shopping in the boot. None of those things matter on a race car. Ditto a racing boat if carried through to it's logical extension will be sparsely equipped and focused on maximum speed at the expense of all other factors. It will have none of the comforts that you would want whilst cruising a nice galley a comfy saloon, decent auxiliary power, payload for cruising gear etc. Lack of payload severely curtails your cruising range and self sufficiency and the amount of time you can spend at anchor in that remote Island paradise.

    You mention Spirit which is a lovely trimaran but it's important to note that she would have been uncompetitive on the inshore racing circuit as too heavy. She was mostly used for offshore racing which was more the boats forte and where she was most successful. In her current cruiser/racer equipment level she weighs 4 tonne about 2 tonne heavier than what you would want a competitive F40 trimaran to weigh.

    If you have an emotional connection to a certain type of trimaran that's fine you don't have to justify it to anyone. I like F40 trimarans and I'm pretty much across the pros and cons but I wouldn't for a moment suggest they are a good cruiser any more than a Newick Val or a mini transat.

    I'd not be too quick to condemn those "corporate" sailing programs very few of the storied hero boats in multihull history would have seen the light of day without sponsorship. I for one think that would have been sad not to mention the sailors and their achievements or the human story of pushing the limits of what is possible in sailing.
     
  9. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Creating Maltese Falcon & other fantasies

    Took the liberty of editing some of your posting above.

    Creating and sailing racing vessels is not the only manner to fully enjoy that sense of accomplishment in the sailing world. I fully imagine that Tom Perkins had a GREAT ride in creating Maltese Falcon against many odds-makers:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/maltese-falcon-hit-miss-12459.html

    and lunch with Tom Perkins

    I didn't grow up in a sailing family either (in fact a military family), but somehow I fell in love with the idea of sailing the oceans in a cruising, exploring sense. That has driven me for years.
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden-16721.html

    I'd love to find a person willing to fund the fun, excitement, and challenges of creating this Dynarig catamaran concept,...and there certainly would be some challenges, but not insurmountable.
    http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/

    This would be a much more gratifying way to spend dollars in the sailing arena
     
  10. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    Smart Tri 40 is one design that makes sense to cruise in comfort
     
  11. Skip JayR
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    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Alternatives in rigging...

    Everybody has his/her own dreams and motivation. Remembers me a motto I like to follow:

    "Let sit your dreams on the driver's seat." :)

    Yes, I have noticed about your dream/target... more I fell over it because of my curiosity to see what is behind the term "Distinctive Expedition Yachts" (seen in your footer).

    I haven't dealt with this kind of rig system in details... neither theoretically nor practically. Remembers me little bit to the Chinese Junk. Here the model of the Chengho which was in use from 1405 till 1430...
    [​IMG]

    Would that kind of sails/rigging be something worthfully for a Trimaran, too ?? :)

    I only have seen Crab (Claw) Sails on multihulls (Catamarans + Proas)...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (Source: http://www.multihull.de/technik/t-slotboom_gb.htm
     
  12. Skip JayR
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    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    It is a term which isnt defined by a "technical standard". The physical constitution of a human is different from individual to individual.

    If one has a weak backbone muscle structure (s)he might have troubles sitting on the outriggers on a wild ride through bumpy sea... and feel very uncomfortably just because of the physical constitution.
    Another gets seasickness on a catamaran as he cannot handle the two parallel movements such boats demonstrate over the x- and y-axis which is different from monohulls. Etc. etc. etc. ...

    Going back to the 70th/80th comfort had a different meaning for sailors compared to the "luxury" we have today already on smaller cruising yachts.

    Yes, on a speedy Cruising multihull in our times even one can have "morning/afternoon tea" like Queen Elizabeth... in the powdering gown behind the helm at a speed of >20 knots.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCPLZOHfL-Y


    Such new expectations of sailors/boatbuilders/designers who realize such kind of "extra comfort" might evoke new desires in the gild of sailors... and set new (higher) standards in the heads of the sailing folks.

    I think, such kind of "super luxury" isnt something one needs to target at. A 40 Foot Trimaran can let one enjoy life in a more simply way, too.

    E.g. the sister ship of legendary Crowther 40 Trimaran Verbatim-Bullfrog... the Tri AveGitana/Shark Angels...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5dqbvn8mB8

    (Rec.: If this video is not working for you, you can try some of the snippies on the Facebook page here.)

    Under deck this boat is very simple, with some kind of "pilot berth" (not technically spoken). I still call it racing-cruising Trimaran. As I dont expect from a boat of that size sailing >20 knots more comfort.. even during leasure cruising.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This boat won last year the Solo Trans Tasman Yacht Race. Over a distance of 1380 nm it set a new record by Austrian skipper Reini Gelder (and herewith has beaten that of it's sister boat existing since 1986 by skipper by Ian Johnston). The race takes place only every 4 years (next in spring/April 2018)

    With such a kind of "Formula 40" Tri one can sail joyfully in cruising modus, e.g. two handed (as seen in upper video), or tough as solo racer.

    So long one is not freezing on board, can have a hot meal, drink cleaned water, take a warm deck shower (here and there), laying safely in the berth during sleep on watch free, all is fine. It does not need lots more. Or ?

    Shortly I had a very interesting discussion with one of the leading foil specialists. They are in midth the design process to produce foils for cruicing cats and tris. One interesting argument I heard: The new foiling era will produce boats leight weighted (as we can see, foils on bigger catamarans e.g. for the Gunboat G4 have the power to lift up boats up to a weight of round 4 tons)... and in following a new generation of sailors.

    As "leight weighted" with the benefit of speed by foiling means "avoiding any luxury". It is the "old way of sailing" as we know it from the 70th and 80th. - It is a simply rhythm of watch, watch free, sleeping and eating - watch, watch free, sleeping and eating - etc. ...

    Speedy sailing has a benefit: Simplifying your life. Not only a trend on board of boats in times of foiling. Same many people in tendency have recognized this, e.g. look at the "Tiny house movement" in the USA (which is a result of the collapse of real estate market since 2008), but not only in the USA.

    This trend has swapped back into the world of boaters...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkaH_UUH0Ek


    Actually I define luxury "to have time". Time for studying.... and not hunting 10 hours per day working behind the money to pay the loans. It is a luxury to have time... and it is a "luxury" to be healthy till high age in an overaged society.

    I like the concept of cruising-racing Trimarans as it is not just joy of speed. These boats clear the mind, so I see it... getting rid of all the spoilt expectations to have this or that for a life in comfort... and focus onto the essentials... sailing from A to B at a max. speed.

    Not only Trimarans... :) Shall I have that Boss designed toilet ?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymgiZTeKyqg
     
  13. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    you forgot to mention all owner driven yachts spend most of their time not sailing while the crew are on board.
    Work out a percentage of you own experience
    then take a view on comfort?
     
  14. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Try selling that to the wife,....many times at least 50% of the buying equation

    To go foiling one needs LIGHT WEIGHT. Light weight means carbon and specialty manufacturing,...Gunboat is good example. But I don't think you will find that Gunboat is going to try and make/market the majority of their product line as foilers.


    Quite the contrary in many cases. There comes a time in later life that slowing down is a charm. You begin to really look around and more fully absorb/enjoy your surroundings.

    Speed is for youth.

    Now you've got the feeling.

    Now you lost that feeling. That idea of max speed is not the ultimate.

    The ultimate is creating something new, or tweaking what you have to satisfy your desires to really enjoy the sailing trip itself, and the adventure at the end of that trip.
     

  15. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    That was interesting, haven't seen it before.

    I tried looking further on those webpages to see if they had ever given any consideration to my mainless single-masted ketch idea,...didn't find any?


    That long subject thread on the Maltese Falcon (and its modern Dynarig) is quite interesting, both the one on this Boatdesign forum, and the one on the Yachtforum
    http://www.yachtforums.com/review/perini-navi-289-clipper-yacht-maltese-falcon.13488/

    http://www.yachtforums.com/threads/perini-navi-maltese-falcon-sailing-yacht.2487/

    Never experimented with the idea of a Dynarig on a tri, but I did suggest a aft-mast rig on a big 65 tri that was to be sailed shorthanded my an older fellow and his wife,....retirement boat he was building. Look what it did for the overall mast height and elimination of a BIG full-battened mainsail.
    Aft Mast Alternative on Big Trimaran


    Origination & Justificaction
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/aftmast-rigs-623-7.html#post198605
     
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