The Efficiency of Sails

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by D'ARTOIS, Aug 25, 2005.

  1. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 1,068
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 321
    Location: The Netherlands

    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    A bit to my surprise,lots of energy of this forum goes into the search for another type of engine that may replace the combustion engine someday.
    Good.
    Combustion engines have had their time, and their polluting gases do not improve the world's environment. That may be clear.

    To the sailors under us, I would say the following:

    Lots of energy goes into the topic of finding a replacement for the diesel or gas combustion engine.
    But, how often do you use this engine actually?
    I seldom make more than 150 engine hours per year at frequent sailing. For them who live next to open sea, could even use their engine less.
    If I have to use the engine,I have made arrangements or using vegetable oil instead of diesel fueloil.
    A pre-heater unit mounted before and after the fuelfilters, extends the volume and makes it burn with less or non carbons and acids spewed into the atmosphere. Also this way, the engine runs 25% more econimical, makes less noise, and doesn't smoke or smell.
    I am also rid of those horrible diesel smell on board now I have done the diesel in.
    The Dutch Government, no one to point teir sticky fingers to the non-environmentalists have said to arrange for draconic counter-measurements for people using this almost pollution-free oil instead of the heavy taxed fueloil.
    So there is definately an alternative way to keep our small engines running for the time being and the official diesel prices are more than 1 $ per liter.
    I buy now 1 liter vegetable oil for less than 25 ct.

    That's one.

    Secondly, why are we not putting energy in the development of rig and sail. I believe the present sail tecnology could be simplyfied and the rigging improved in such a way that we might find other useful materials instead of this very expensive carbonfiber.
    Messr, Dahlber etl al. please come forward!
     
  2. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 3,486
    Likes: 96, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 1148
    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    on dutch tv i saw inland "flying" customs and police roadblocks checking for vegetable oil, as you know we allready have red and yellow colored diesel that is beeing checked upon, same oil but much cheaper when used for house heating or big fraighters. guess you have to make it way offshore where in the med there were tax free tankers... airplane kerosine still goes untaxed i belive? good sails are expensive also or next they charge you for the water or wind :rolleyes:
     
  3. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 1,068
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 321
    Location: The Netherlands

    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Well, yes, we have to do something on the excess use of fossil fuel, now that we are entering the critical zone that precedes the point of no return regarding the earth's pollution.
    I have to admit that I am not an environmentalist, but looking at the devastating speed Holland is turned over into a stone and concrete surface, does not really appeal to me.
    Bit by bit agicultural area's are disappearing, green fields making place for large housing projects, the only way to get away from this kind of advancement is looking up the water.
    Vegetable oil as I use it, can be of any kind. The one I use is unfit for human consumption, costs close to nothing if you are able to buy it at he barrel.

    The query I ask myself is if we cannot make sails that are easier to handle whilst keeping their form stability.
    Mr Dalhlberg is experimenting with the fixed wing; a kind of development I like to see, because as a single hander I struggle often with the large sail areas of main and genoa if the weather becomes bad.
    There are furling systems, but they do not aid the sail efficiency due to their lack of form stability.

    I am presently experimenting with a model (of some size) where the hull is triangular, the largest width of the beam totally aft, the mast placed far aft the boat's centre, the keel likewise. Small tests in a pond showed that it heels a little, has a smooth waveride, and powers up quick enough.
    I will have it tanktested and see what will be the result.

    If the rig of Mr Dahlberg works, it could be a nice alternative for a single hander. It is too early to release the drawing of my own idea, but in a few weeks I might be that far.
     
  4. kjell
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 271
    Likes: 5, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: mallorca

    kjell Senior Member

    The Dahlberg Wing-Drive works and is so easy to handle. Maybe too easy, therefore skilled sailors have difficulty to accept this kind of sailing. I think it is time to differ between sailing and wind propulsion.
     
  5. ted655
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 640
    Likes: 14, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 122
    Location: Butte La Rose, LA.

    ted655 Senior Member

    I don't think you will ever win over the water sports crowd or sportfishermen. I for one am changing over from trawler to sail.
    The Junk rig or cat rig is as simple as it gets, I'm headed that direction. :)
     
  6. asathor
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 154
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Minnesota

    asathor Senior Member

    Crab Claw sail

    I read an article some years ago in one of the British magasines that the Crab Claw sail shape might be the most efficient.

    Has anyone seen an implementation of it. It almost seems like it needs to be suspended between twin masts (wishbone standing on end) for the sail to get god shape on both tacks.
     
  7. Sander Rave
    Joined: May 2005
    Posts: 204
    Likes: 7, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: Amsterdam; The Netherlands

    Sander Rave Senior Member

    d'Artois, I'm wondering If the installation you fitted to burn vegetable oil is the same that's used on canal cruises in Amsterdam? Koolzaad (sorry no time to look for a translation) used in these boats smell like a turkey drumstick on a BBQ and onle solve short cycle carbons (don't bring new carbon out of the earth into the environment) I like the effort taken though!

    Now for the Mr Dalhlberg fixed wing; isn't extensive investigation been done in the america's cup? I can't recall it precisicely, I believe there was a cat with a fixed wing. The results should be pretty public by now?

    Last in the environmental vs cost issue: What are the alternatives for reinforced resins? Not only boats but also windmills don't have eternal life. If we pile all of these we are able to build a light weight- hight tech pile to the moon, because there is nothing much more we can do with it, recycling is impossible. Therefore I'm pro aluminum, but also aluminum can't solve all world problems ;-)

    Just dumping my thoughts, I'll get back when I have some more time.
     
  8. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 1,068
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 321
    Location: The Netherlands

    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Samder, I am burning sunfloweroil that has been rejected for human consumption, if there is any oilsmell, there must be something wrong with the adjustment of the engine - I have no smell at all. Remember that diesel perfume that hangs around in a sailboat - well, I am totally rid of it!!

    I have seen now that here are similar topics on the Forum, the only thing I want to emphasize is that the mainstream of naval architects still produces traditional rigs like they do have already for hundreds of years.
    Eric Sponberg and Gary Hoyt do have an alternative, The people from Skye do offer also an alternative, Dahlberg comes with something new.

    To enter the America's cup technology in the discussion is working counterproductive, for the simple reason that they are subject to specific rulings.
    I am looking for a discussion that going out of the box, just like the guys who are searching for alternative ways of propulsion.
    The sailors however, are not looking for mechanic propulsion, they look for improvements that can make sailing easier and cheaper.
     
  9. Sander Rave
    Joined: May 2005
    Posts: 204
    Likes: 7, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: Amsterdam; The Netherlands

    Sander Rave Senior Member

    Great! Didn't mean to spoil this discussion. When I'm home I look up this specific example where clearly out of the box thinking made a great leap. I do understand the budgets are huge and appropriateness for all sailers small in the A's cup.

    I like this combination of easier and cheaper. It's one of our driving forces at the studio. When it comes to this in marine environment, shouldn't we look back in history first? Money, mouths to feed and functionality have always been an issue. Or am I overlooking something like new business opportunities and innovations/functionallity that could change the way we have to look at sailing? What for instance is the advantage of your model?
    Regards,

    Sander
     
  10. kjell
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 271
    Likes: 5, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: mallorca

    kjell Senior Member

    The introduction of the Wing-Drive as a modern wind propulsion system is not trying to reduce the value of the art of sailing and not trying to compete with racing sails. It is a Simple and Safe way of moving a boat without the need to go to school learning the difficult art of sailing. If you are a sailor you can get more out of the Wing-Drive and be able to appreciate the benefits. If you can manoeuvre the boat with the engine then you can manoeuvre with the Wing-Drive.
     
  11. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 1,068
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 321
    Location: The Netherlands

    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Sander: it is a bit too early to produce even a sketch. I want to know if it works first.
    Kjell: sailing IS moving by windpropulsion. I like your idea - it is out of box thinking but there are, to my taste, a few disadvantages to your WingDrive.
    I try to explain by the following example:
    "We do live in a windy country, where windshifts are more common than exception. If I want to have silence on board, I do not want any moving parts that may create noise. A unit that is turning continuously due to windshifts or squalls is creating a nuisance on a large yacht. Secondly, it prohibits people on deck. they can be caught all in a sudden by the shifting wing, just like gybing of the boom may catch somebody all in a sudden and unexpectedly."
    Evidently, this spoils the advantageous application of the Wind Drive.
    You should develop something that is collapsable. Correct me if I am wrong.
     
  12. kjell
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 271
    Likes: 5, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: mallorca

    kjell Senior Member

    When you make an invention everything looks perfect from your point of view. Therefore is so important to have the opinion from people that not like or not understand your invent. There is a lot to learn from them. You are not the fist person that thinks that that Wing-Drive has to be mounted on deck level. No, it is mounted at the height that makes the possibility to move safely on deck. Referent to the noise from the movement of the W-D when adjusting its position on windshift and squalls. There are no noises, because the central shaft is mounted on sealed and lubricated ball bearings.
     
  13. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 1,068
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 321
    Location: The Netherlands

    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Let me first convince you that in no way I want to belittle your efforts! Not at all! Therefore I said: correct me if I am wrong!

    Now the following: I am busy with an idea to construct a monohull wide body, in a triangular shape and being of light displacement - with a little or no ballast.
    Due to the large decksurface, it should be covered with solar cell panels in order to create enough power for the daily use on board and to power the boat by electric propulsion.
    I have made a model that performs beyond expectation. The only disadvantage I see at the moment is it's slamming on the waves, so some modifications to the hull form are may be obligatory. I don't know yet.
    Have you available some calculations to drive a large monohullbody of a L to B x D ratio of 9 : 4 : 0,2 ?
     
  14. JonathanCole
    Joined: May 2005
    Posts: 446
    Likes: 10, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Hawaii

    JonathanCole imagineer

    One question about using a mounted wing or any fixed (non-sail) device for propulsion...

    In really bad gusting winds, aren't there times when you need to lower your sails to keep from capsizing or at least being whipped around by the wind?

    Second related question is, what about Brian Eiland's aft masted rigging? It looked to me from a seat of the pants evaluation to simplify sails and rigging while maintaining all of the traditional benefits of sails. If I were going to get a sail boat I would probably prefer his design.
    http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/
     

  15. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 1,068
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 321
    Location: The Netherlands

    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    I believe for the time being that on even line with the Sponberg catrig, Eiland's aftmast rigging could be a sound solution.
    This rig I had in mind whilst developing this triangular hull concept. To use this (Eiland's) aftmast concept with as little as ballast possible. I certainly tend to believe that it will work on a monohull too, although to which extend, I have to still to find out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2005
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.