the deck on my Pearson Ensign

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by LeRi222, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    If you bond the ply to the framing yoiu don't need any fasteners. That's one reason your comment about using 5200 was not correct. If you use thickened epoxy you can use some temporary fasteners to keep the surfaces tight until the expoxy cures, then pull them out. My deck and cockpit have no fasteners holding the ply to the framing.


    You would lose that bet.


    I have a solar vent mounted on 6mm ply. There is no backer needed.

    I also have not added hardwood or ply to make the deck 1" thick where hardware is installed, not on my boat or any other small boat. I wonder where this kind of thinking comes from?


    Seems I didn't say that either. Maybe I should have. This is not the first time you have posted something that would mislead someone who is asking for advice.
     
  2. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    From experience and knowledge Dude!

    The fact that you do lousy jobs does not mean that should be standard.

    But why do I comment, and argue with a *******.
    You will probably die if there is nobody to contradict, no matter if you are right or wrong.

    Richard
     
  3. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    So, your great experience and knowledge agree that the deck on a 22 foot sailboat should be 1/2" plywood with an additional 1/2" of material in the areas where hardware is attached? Not doing this is a lousy job?

    That tells us all we need to know about your "experience and knowledge".

    Dude.


    So, in your lofty opinion, it is better to have someone give the wrong information to someone who asks a question, without contradiction, as long as they are one of your internet buddies?

    I'm sure he will stroke your ego some more now that you have come to his aid on this thread, in a never-ending spiral...
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Nah ******* you do not put words in my mouth and expect to receive a reply, do you?

    The 6mm deck you mentioned is insufficient to bear the load of a clamp for example on a boat of the size you have been talking! Hence my comment: lousy job.

    The rest of your drivel is not worth my comment, you would just use it to start the next idiotic round of arguments.
    It is no wonder that ALL professionals amongst our members here call you by your name: *******. I am no excemption.

    Have a nice day Dude..
     
  5. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Just because you don't have the skill, knowledge, and experience to use the correct materials does not mean that better designers and builders haven't figured it out..30+years ago.
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Ja Paul B, I don´t have the skills, knowledge and experience.... but I build over 2000 tonnes of boats every year. All cr@p of course.....

    Alan was right!
     
  7. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Well said!


    Proves your statement above!
     
  8. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Ja Paul, we know.

    You are the one here who is always right..............







    ...but we are those making the money, looser.:D
     
  9. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Ignoring for a moment the hijack,

    Take a look at the ensign class website at http://www.ensignclass.com/images/stories/pdf/ensign_list_aug_12,2010.pdf

    That is the list from the class sight of maybe 20 boats for sail, including some priced from 700-15,000.

    If you are part of a yacht club, or are interested in becoming one get in touch with the GYA (Gulf Yachting Association). An associate membership is only about $100 a year but would give everyone access to all the GYA yacht clubs and a number of advantages for your organization.

    If you do have a group interested in racing, I would highly suggest calling SYC (Southern Yacht Club) and asking if they would be interested in selling/donating a boat to your charity. They just bought 15 new Flying Scotts to replace an ageing fleet of them, and might be willing to help out. Flying Scotts BTW are owned by every yacht club in the GYA, and there is an entire series of intra-club events focusing on them.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    A 1/4" marine grade plywood substrate (6566 or better), bonded over closely spaced stringers or beams, is more then satisfactory for a deck on this boat. Cabin sides and roof would require similar scantlings, though thought to expected used would dictate a light and heavy duty version.

    A full up racer would be best served with the same theme, closely spaced stringers or beams and 1/4" plywood with a carlin at the deck opening and roof/cabin side interface. A cruising version should consider a heavy plywood schedule for the cabin sides and possibly slightly larger beam or stringer dimensions.

    These would be standard scantlings for a boat of this class and scale. Making any of it much heavier wouldn't do anything except increase global loads. If it was me, I'd use a stringer based fore deck, rather then traditional deck beams. This is two fold, first there isn't a traditional sheer clamp or shelf to have the beams land on and second, it improves both the longitudinal stiffness of the foredeck and improves the compressive strength of the upper portion of the "hull girder". In a racer this means a taunter headstay, in a cruiser this means a solid deck under foot.

    As for Paul B. finding dissection of forum members comments, more entertaining then positive and constructive contributions to the thread, well, we all know what Paul's agenda has been. He's been here longer then I, but has the reputation of someone with a month or two of contributions here. This speaks volumes about his value here and his ability to offer guidance. Considering his experience level in boats, one can only conclude he's not much of a people person and likely sits in his easy chair, yelling at the TV or on occasion the computer screen. Some find life an ill place and feel they must share their pain with everyone else. Paul, take you medication and log onto bitchybitchesareus.com so you can be in fellow comfort.

    Seasailor55, the best thing you could do is download the plans to her at the class web site. It's a big PDF file and probably more information then you ever wanted to know, but at least you'll know how it's supposed to be and where you can make adjustments.
     
  11. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    alan white Senior Member

    I tend to suggest a novice overbuild if the end result is not overly heavy. A whole new build depends on careful attention to each and every detail so that the sum total of parts and pieces hasn't added an extra 500 lbs to the target weight, but that's a whole boat.
    A simple deck job, however, that would lean in favor of bullet-proofness, would forgive the kind of errors that a novice might make. Screws set too deep. Epoxy making a mess as it oozes out of frame tops as the deck is screwed down (epoxy without screws is NEVER as strong as through-screwing---- it depends entirely on a series of tensile bonds, one for each layer of plywood and another for the plywood/frame interface. Screwing adds compressive strength.
    It just seems that a novice has his hands full without having to remember every technique the pro takes for granted, like having a sheet of plastic ready to catch oozing epoxy, or having to scrape the drips off and scrub the frames with a solvent afterwards.
    All while he's panicking to finish driving screws. Hence such suggestions as using #5200, which is a damned good adhesive in addition to having a pretty slow cure rate and a tendency not to drip like epoxy.
    Believe it or not, only a very few experienced guys can handle the deck installation using epoxy as described by Paul B.. Most would have their hands more than full. It's not like they get practice sessions.
    And what is the downside to using 3/8" plywood and attaching it as I described? A stronger boat at the cost of a few dollars and only a half dozen pounds!
    Lest we forget, I never argued that 1/2" plywood was correct. I admitted it was overkill without hesitation. This class may be raced a lot due to the immense popularity of the boat over so many years, but I would guess that many of them who actively race are holding a lot of extra pounds of water in the cores and frames and bilge anyway, especially since the cockpits don't self-bail and I rarely see covers over the cockpits.
    I think a good shop like I'm sure PAR runs would be doing a customer a disservice unless he specced the job both light and strong. Pro shops tend to do far more elegantly conceived jobs because that's what the customer expects and pays for. But a lone teenager might well be advised to take advice that considers his inexperience and budget. For example, even AB exterior fir plywood is tremendously strong and once glassed and sealed, has a very long lifetime, voids and thick plies notwithstanding.
     
  12. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Minnesotan wakes up daily, in SE MN, a good start,

    BobBill Senior Member

    Ensign Refurbish

    Sorry, I was referring to the structural problems that need to have pics.

    My Ensign had teak seats and deck, with about half-inch between the planks. Rails were teak. Support was teak posts or what ever they are called, and the deck was supported with teak stringers and the center was removable and covered a large bilge space, where we stored a long stemmed outboard and anchor etc. Cabin doors were mahogany with louvers. Cuddy had two cushioned bunks. As I recall, the cabin area and forward decks were glass. We raced and cruised that beauty for quite awhile.

    If it was me, I would be looking for a nice used Yngling, Soling or even a Typhoon or Flying15 as keel boats and maybe a Shark Cat or Thistle center boarders.

    So many boats can be found at low cost;( as low as $2,500) this project seems too involved and costly to be worth the time etc. Young lad needs to be sailing, not slaving.
     
  13. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I disagree Bob, there's not much more rewarding a thing, then to finally splash a long awaited project, see her float where she's supposed to and gather up her sheets in reply to her insistence.

    Yes, there are lots of prospective projects available currently. Most of these will end up in the land fill, which is a normal thing. I inspect about a 100 yachts each year and many that I see, will be ground up and used as fuel in a garbage to energy plant, before too long. This is the usual cycle of life for a production boat. 40 year old war horses aren't an exception to this rule, in fact the opposite is true, they wear out faster and get tossed out to pasture sooner.
     
  14. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Par, good point, and I am with you all the way on that. I am, as you know, am giving life back to a '73 Kite, a much simpler task, however.

    But, it just seemed from the thread that this project may be beyond the lad and the cost may not be rewarded sufficiently to keep him sailing. I mean, there are some awesome sailboats available for peanuts now - Sharks, Thistles, MobJacks, Dutchman's and so on. All need some work, and will be rewarding, but less a reconstruction.

    Still, if that Ensign sails fine again, super. I loved that boat and would still have her, had I not had to move to a river town far from lakes. I loved taking her out in a blow, alone, and sit on the low rail, inches from the froth and foam...with a brew and a grin as wide as her beam.
     

  15. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Apparently you've made the same assumption that I previously did. The fellow doing the repair isn't a lad, but considerably older. There was a 14 year old on the thread for a while, but seasailor55 isn't 14 and I'll venture a guess he's 55.

    I still say go for it as the righteous thing to do. These boats are great sailors if you have thick enough water.
     
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