The AWLGRIP Knowledge challenge

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by grady, Dec 31, 2007.

  1. Kaptin-Jer
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    Kaptin-Jer Semi-Pro

  2. grady
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    grady Novice

    Plastic

    Micheal P. I only have one experience painting plastic. It was a set of three poly rod holders. And I treated it the same as the rest of the boat and it came out great. four seasons now and no chiping or peeling.
    Sand w/320, primed w/545, sanded again w/320, then sprayed w/color

    Lots of luck
     
  3. FibrSupplyDepot
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    FibrSupplyDepot Fiberglass Supply Depot

    Link to application guide from Awlgrip

    https://fiberglasssupplydepot.com/AWLGRIP-TOPCOAT.html
     
  4. Paint_Polymath
    Joined: Nov 2013
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    Paint_Polymath New Member

    Awlgrip tips

    Hi there. I stumbled accross this thread and thought I might share a few tips on Awgrip application.

    For a bit of background, I have been in the paint business for 20 years and my last job before this, I worked for Awlgrip as their global application specialist. I was part of the team writing the updated application guide and worked hard on understanding the extreme end of the finer points of application and how to reduce surface texture.

    So, in my time, I came up with a number of tricks and tips for applicators and I've always been happy to pass them on. However, I also am not afraid to tell painters that the received wisdom is often wrong. For example, the assertion that you have to over-thin it to get a good result. I could explain why this is wrong in great detail but it would be too long a thread. Believe me, you might have had a better result by doing this but that is not the same as saying you have to do it to get a good result.

    Here's a few to get going, if people are interested in more, post a reply and I will see what I can do.

    1. Thinning. Do not be afraid to blend thinners. For example, I NEVER use T0003, but prefer a blend of T0001 and T0005 (yes!). Why? Because the T0001 cuts hard and allows the spraygun to atomise the paint really well, then it is gone quick and the T0005 takes over and allows a lovely slow flow out on the surface. This is a different effect than you get with T0003 alone. Beware that the ratio you blend at is important and temperature is key here. I would suggest hot weather applicators try 50:50 and colder weather demands more lik 75:25.

    2. Viscosity. Never rely on a percentage of thinner or your memory. Thin to viscosity. 13 to 14 seconds is perfect. NEVER Spray a job without measuring viscosity and make sure it is on point every time. It might seem a hassle but lets be honest it only takes 14 seconds to do and it can save your job.

    3. The magic trick. For your final coat, mix half the normal amount of topcoat and also mix the same amount of Awlgrip Clear. Then mix them together. Make sure each one is the right viscosity first of course. You will effectively now have a 50:50 mix of clear and colour. Go ahead and shoot with this. See if it helps.

    Trying these tips is at your discretion, DO NOT try them out on a real job first time, they might need some tweaks to your normal technique. They worked out for me and many others I showed them to but they do rely on you knowing what you are doing and already having your gun and environment set up properly already. Gun setup is actually the biggest and most important topic to study if you really want to improve but again, too long a thread and I might spoil my dream of wrinting the book.

    My final point is about sprayguns. I worked with ITW DeVilbiss very closely on a project to make a superyacht spraygun designed around Awlgrip topcoat a couple of years ago and if you haven't heard of it you should ask your DeVilbiss distributor for a demo. It is a huge technical success even if it isn;t well known and will change your results if you are using HVLP or compliant / RP sprayguns. It is called the CSpray. Other great sprayguns are available and my personal facourites are the Iwata WS400 Supernova and WS200 (pressure fed) and the DUX (in certain situations).

    http://english.finishingbrands.eu/news/index.asp?EnhanceA=NEWS ARTICLE DETAILS&RecordID=114

    Have fun.
     
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  5. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Cut white with clear and it goes yellow with age. I notice it when I try to touch up.

    Clear in flag blue seems to not be nearly as UV resistant as straight flag blue.

    Any non spray ...roll and tip ...suggestions. Do you recommend sponge rollers, fine nap rollers, ...and laying off brushes..any tips.

    And Cure X. And tips for roll and tip.

    Viscosity ...thinner ratios Roll and tip.

    545 roll and tip ? Wet on wet, no sand ?
     
  6. Paint_Polymath
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    Paint_Polymath New Member

    You are correct, the white might yellow slightly mixed with clear, it's actually the clear that's yellowing over time. I should have qualified that. I have not seen the Flag Blue lose UV resistance. I won't dispute it but I haven't seen it personally.

    X-Cure I never had occasion to use so I don't have much on that, but for rolling and tipping and brushing, I have always used the standard brushing mix recommendations and acheived very good results. Much of this dark art is in the type of brush and hte technique. There is a very well known superyacht builder in the Netherlands who brush Awlgrip on very large superyachts. They are even now only starting to consider spraying and I have to say that the results they get are unbelievable. You would not know that it wasn't sprayed and if you know what you are looking at, you might say it looks even better than a sprayed finish. The Dutch are master brush painters and I spent a bit of time trying to learn it from some of their best guys. They tend to use round or preferably oval shaped brushes, usually pig hair, although the synthetic type are taking off, with round handles. The best ones come from Italy, I can't remember the manufacturer. They paint three vertical lines really heavily, brush them into each other horizontally then finish with a (not as gentle as you'd think) set of vertical strokes, then move on. I watched two men paint a 75 foot yacht topsides in about an hour like that and the next day it looked like a dream.

    545 is another thing it's easy to misuse. I've seen a lot of people get bored with it and under-thin so that they can apply more per coat. It's important not to be tempted to do this in a top quality job. I found that any texture you get in the 545 will show through in the topcoat even if you sand it out. I guess you'll have seen it if you try to sand out a sag, it still shows up however hard you seem to hit it. Same with peel in the 545.

    Wet on wet will not give a great finish. For hard to see areas it's fine but not for an A+ Paintjob.

    Sanding is also a big topic I studied for a long time. It is not always true that one brand of paper is the best for all grits. I found that to get the best I had to have a range of brands for different grits. If you can get film discs or roll you should try them as they give a more even cut. Then, there is the tip that spread round Europe a few years ago which divides opinion - The best result for 545-Awlgrip is acheived by sanding with P320 followed by red scotchbrite discs on your DA. The red scotchbrite cleans dust out of the scratches and rounds the edges off. Many people are scared of this in case it leads to poor adhesion but I have not seen a case of it yet. The scratch depth and width remains the same.

    If you are using Awlfair, you should try to get hold of a product called Abranet HD, made by Mirka. It is the strongets, longest lasting sandpaper I have ever seen. It cuts through filler like nothing else. Don't confuse it with the regular Abranet.

    Another disclaimer. I did 80% of my work in a spray school / training centre. I always used large panels (8x4 foot) and transferred to real boats when possible. You should consider that although the application was realistic, I didn't get to study longevity. That was done in a lab somewhere else.

    There is a common claim that spraying panels, no matter how big is not a fair way to develop technique. I disagree. Flat panels are more unforgiving that curved surfaces and I do recommend that having a couple of 8x4 aluminiumn panels to do tests on is a great idea. Once you can get a good result on a flat surface you will have great results on a curve.
     
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  7. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Many of us boots on the wharf guys must paint , roll and tip, outside of the controlled shop environment.

    Technical application guides are accurate with controlled environment work .

    Viscosity, flow and cure time , roll and brush , are the wharf rat challenges

    Properly thinned paint over a cold substrate. Flash off on horizontal surfaces once the sun goes down.

    Always something.

    Building 545 film thickness, roll and tip, to an acceptable finish for fine 320 paper is a never ending challenge .
     
  8. grady
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    grady Novice

    Great informational exchange......Love all the input

    I have had a little lull in my painting activities.....(as I purchased a new boat and keeping up with maintaining two boats has slowed the upgrades)

    But I'm planning on finishing the cabin interior of my project boat. Changes in my life dictate that this will be a roll and tip job....My first

    Please keep the exchanges coming it's real nice to see my old thread alive and still sharing.
     
  9. jimmy wise
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    jimmy wise Junior Member

    so what tip size for the iwata? sata 2000?
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Grady, you didn't have enough to do, so you picked up another boat? Masochism, pure masochism I say . . . :)
     
  11. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member


    Seek out the Anza supplier in your area.

    Thier laying off brush for tipping is very good.

    http://www.anza.co.uk/products/brushes/proffessional/perfect/101100pm

    Thier mini rollers for poly paints are very good

    http://www.anza.co.uk/products/rollers


    They also supply rubber putty knives, plastic razor blades, and a very nice serrated bog spreading knife.

    http://www.anza.co.uk/products/tools/other-tools/670115p
     
  12. mastcolin
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    mastcolin Senior Member

    Awlgrip goes yellow and dull WITHOUT the clear added. Colour change may be perhaps more with more clear added but the gloss retention will be less. The more clear in final coat, the easier it is to polish.

    The blue will not be worse with clear. You aren"t comparing like with like on your examples seen. I mean, the examples will be different film thickness or something. Lab trials/science/experience with known variables show added clear to enhance gloss retention of blue. Colour retention is as the whites, it sucks with or without. Try Alexseal if you want your paint to stay same colour for longer:) Or car paint base/clear system...yes there are down sides to this I know.

    Rolling/brushing awlgrip? Din cup 4 35s at 20C or there abouts...depending on your brush...technique...temp...wind:) The better you get the thicker you can brush at viscosity wise. The 35s is good start for small cell roller and tipping off. Sorry, brushing is an art and no list of advice will get you that last 10%. The 1st 90% should be easily achieved with a little practice/experience.

    Rolling 545? I daren't tell you what I do. Alwgrip would probably have kittens. That said never had a problem ...yet:)?
     
  13. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Thats about how I go about is. My problem is the environment. The substrate will always be cold and effect flow out. Waite for the substrate to warm and my cure window gets smaller and i risk flash off...flattening... when the sun goes down

    I try to compensate with cure x but this leeds to more flow out problems.

    Id say my roll brush topcoat on horizontal surfaces is a 50 50 gamble even with good craftsmanship.

    Topcoat on vertical surfaces always goes as expected

    For most roll and tip the reason for not going pro spray under cover is time and money.
     

  14. grady
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    grady Novice

    Yeah Paul.....Just a sucker for punishment...

    Michael thanks for links

    Hey Collin.....great to see you back on this thread
     
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