Ted Warren new Ultralight 20 trimaran

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Corley, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    Love the boat. But I am looking forward to some vids in 20K and chop.
     
  2. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    Doug Lord, sounds like you should go the route of the hydroptere prototypes then, those seem to be more along the lines of what you want, if you want full foiling.
     
  3. paxfish
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    paxfish Junior Member

    so, what's the potential here?

    Our Hobie 16 top speed GPS thus far is 19.8 knots, 1 up and trapped out (230 pound crew weight.) My boys have hit 21.5 GPS double trapped. Of course, that is on a 40 year old design.

    What is the performance potential of this new tri?
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Performance stands to be very high if similar "ultralight" tris like the Gougeons 25' Victor T in 1969 and Randy Smyth's Sizzor are any measure. Both those boats were/are faster than nearly equal length cats-and that's fast!
     
  5. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    That's a great question.

    Doug,
    Continuing claims with not even a number are getting harder to swallow every day.
    GPS is so available.
    One of the things asked is why there are never any heavy weather pictures / videos. Everyone looks good in light weather.

    Those two tri's might be faster in lighter weather, but that doesn't say how fast they really are.
    Raw speed is just bragging rights and probably only applicable 1% of the time.
    But how about some numbers?

    Then we will worry about confirming them.
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    U20

    The guy asked for "potential" -their are enough numbers on Warren's site to deduce that the Ultralight 20 has great potential for sheltered water speed. I wouldn't consider the boat ocean going.
    I'd like to see some race results as well.
     
  7. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Corley epoxy coated

    There is a quote on the website from a UL20 owner so take from it what you will it would be nice if someone would take a GPS and go pro out for some sailing in these conditions:

    "The boat is beautifully made, amazingly light and sails very well. It handles strong wind and choppy waves without difficulty and is particularly fast in a light wind."

    UltraLight 20 Owner, Peter P. —
     
  8. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Advertising copy is always wonderful.
    It might even be truthful.

    I appreciate the owners comments, but I don't know how he sails - no offense intended.

    I was always a mediocre sailor on a Tornado, but I was always amazed to be told how difficult it was to sail one by those who never tried. These guys thought that a Hobie 16 was the greatest sailboat in the world, even when the Tornado out pointed and out sailed them.

    Who is talking matters.

    But a GPS with a windspeed and a point of sail can be unbiased.

    I am not trying to say anything bad about the Ultralight 20. I just want to know some facts.

    To quote the original article about the Gougeon Tri "in heavier air the boat became somewhat unstable, inspite of carrying 45 sq ft less than the C-class cats ...." (that's a paraphrase). So all boats have their best points of sail, even an icon in the under 20 trimarans. Daysailor/ raceboat.

    Finished.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I have a GPS tracker on my Test Model to find out how fast it's going. We(Dan and I) test at sea level. Twice now ,along with speed we got altitude-about 8' in one case and 100' in the other case. While the boat did fly I guarantee not that high. So is my GPS accurate?
    Do the facts that are known about the Ultralight 20 give you any reason to think it has "potential" to sail fast and well?
     
  10. 2far2drive
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    2far2drive Senior Member

    GPS can be very accurate. The entire system was designed for the military for tracking and targeting and they just let civilians use it as a side note. Ive reviewed your gps puck doug basically its crap. The company is barely in business with a chinese converted front end in english of their website last time I checked.

    But... I completely understand the limitations you are working with/in so you didnt have many options. I can design a super small unit for you but even my small units are too heavy/large for the model. :(

    I have also seen many GPS units err on the height side of things so it might be unreliable in/on the water. I have never seen a marine purpose built gps provide altitude.
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Another guy-- in Australia-- uses the Igotu tracker I use and on his screen shots you see ridiculous altitudes as well. Do you think the altitude can be wrong and the speed be right? I've made an attachment for the Velocitec speed puck for when we start sailing again to compare speed readouts. I just don't trust the speed.......
     
  12. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Keep talking Doug.
    More empty talk doesn't put meat on the bones.

    I want to know how it sails compared to a Tornado.
    That would be a good standard to compare against if there is no gps qualified to satisfy you.

    Height does not equal speed. You were trying to answer the wrong question.
    More distraction, no information.

    Actually I accept that you do not have one and therefore can't honestly answer. Why don't you quit making excuses? Just stop and let someone else answer if they have the information.

    Sorry, I said I was finished.
     
  13. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Having created a business using Gps as a tracking device, with competitions based on that data throughout the world, there are some fundamental things we need to be care of.

    Yes the data has got better ( there was an artificial error originally to prevent foreign armies benefitting ) and the units have got faster in setup, but the small reported errors are based on a unit sitting absolutely still and able to statistically hone the reported position. Once a unit begins to move then the gps unit is unable to statistically improve its data reliability but simply relies on smoothing algorithms to artificially output its data stream.

    Depending on where you are altitude is the worst effected and the slower you go the least reliable position. So in terms of a yacht sailing at slow speed, over short distances then you are into worst case terms. My guess if you get better than a 5 metre circle area for position and a 10 metre height bubble then you will be doing well.

    The other thing that does annoy me is people quoting max speed as shown by the GPS. Very few commercial units smooth the data over say 30 seconds but instead show the max speed between 2 adjacent points over 1 second. If we have a potential error of 5 metres and a boat only moved 5 metres moved in 1 second, you can see the potential for huge over optimistic speeds

    So guys and gals unless you sail for periods of time in generally the same direction and sit your boat on land for altitude, then one has to use the data as just a good general guideline.

    So then how is Google to have driverless cars. GPs is just part of its senses and is used only to give general map guidance.
     
  14. champ0815
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    champ0815 Senior Member

    In short, yes! Since the speed shown by GPS is usually calculated based on the 2D position on the geoid, fewer satellite contacts are sufficient to provide more or less useful data. For altitude, you need a reliable 3D fix of the GPS, which is, depending on the height of the antenna above surface and above sea level, only to achieve with satellites sufficiently distributed in all directions.
    After many years of hiking, biking and running with GPS trackers I can conclude, that in flat areas the distance and average(!!!) speed informations are reliable, whereas the height information is way off. In contrast, in hilly environments such as mountain hiking, the GPS tracks height profiles are often almost identical to the ones created by barometric altimeters
     

  15. Marmoset
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    Marmoset Senior Member

    Well I know civilian gps is degraded, military is spot on. I know for my airplane stuff when a second antenna is added alt accuracy is greatly improved.


    Barry
     
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