Tearing Velocity?

Hi Leo. Welcome back!

Did you ever do any drag calculations on the circular wing? There's a current thread here dealing with low aspect ratio foils where that might be relevant:

My own dabbling with circular wings was part of a validation process for my personal VL code and I think it came through with flying colors there, but I can't find any notes or results indicating that I computed the induced drag.
CircularWingVLResult.webp
 
Why be accurate when you can have trends :p:p
"The purpose of computation is insight, not numbers.",
Richard Hamming, Numerical Methods for Scientists and Engineers, 1962.

Suppose you calculated, or measured, the lift coefficent slope of long thin
wings, and you found that CL/alpha = 6.3, 6.28, 6.283, 6.2832 for increasing
wing lengths.

A fair guess would be that, based on the trend, the true lift coefficient slope
for infinitely long wings was exactly 2*pi.

That guess might help you to prove mathematically that it is indeed 2*pi, and
that would be an excellent result.

Now, suppose that you computed an approximation of the lift coefficient slope of
a thin wing of circular planform in potential flow as 1.79075033.

Plugging that value into the so-called PSLQ algorithm in Wolfram Alpha gives the
result 16/(3*zeta(2) +4), where zeta(2) = pi^2/6.

After a bit of algebra, that means 1.79075033 is approximately 32/(pi^2 + 8).

That might give you a hint of how to get the exact value for the lift slope. You
would still have to come up with a way to prove it. Hauptman and Miloh found
the result CL/alpha = 32/(pi^2 + 8) which is a quite lovely result IMO. They
most definitely did NOT use the PSLQ algorithm to get a "hint". I have just used
it as an example because the PSLQ algorithm found their result very easily.

Unfortunately, Hauptman and Miloh's result is not exact. They had to twist the
wingtips slightly, so their wing is not perfectly flat. It is pretty good as an
approximation, being about 0.04% different to Jordan's result. Unfortunately,
their moment coefficient slope is not as good and nor is the induced drag or the
strength of the (composite) wing tip singularity strength.

Also unfortunately, my 20 decimal place result for the lift slope doesn't yield
anything useful using PSLQ. I'm actually not that interested in the lift, moment
or induced drag - I'm more interested in the wing tip singularity strength
because it would be relevant to all wings with (parabolic) curved wing tips.

Did you ever do any drag calculations on the circular wing? There's a current thread here dealing with low aspect ratio foils where that might be relevant:

My own dabbling with circular wings was part of a validation process for my personal VL code and I think it came through with flying colors there, but I can't find any notes or results indicating that I computed the induced drag.

Your result for the lift coeffcient slope is very good, but I'm not convinced
that VLM is particularly robust. I don't have time to search for it, but I think
there is a very old thread here on bdn where Mark Drela also showed a good
approximation for the circular wing using his VLM.

The problem I see is that you can adjust the number of chordwise and spanwise
panels to get a good approximation. If you then vary one or both slightly, the
accuracy can get significantly worse. You used 32 x 32 panels. Have you tried,
for example, 30 x 34? Or 34 x 30?

Lift is an integrated quantity, and that can mask some "wobbles" in the chord-
wise loadings. I have attached David Standingford's PhD thesis. See Chapters 1
and 2.

As to induced drag...

There are at least 2 good ways to calculate induced drag. Drela and many others
prefer a Trefftz plane method. See, for example,

For panel methods, I prefer the method described by Standingford which uses the
leading edge suction because I am interested in the way it varies as you go
towards the wing tips. It is also the method I used in my program LSP which I
released on bdn many years ago.

But for the circular wing I like Jordan's method. See the attached (very)
unfinished internal report. The plots compare different extrapolation methods I
have tried.

Sorry, but some entries are missing from the tables. However, the list of
references at the end are a good start for anyone interested in this type of
extremely esoteric stuff. I will return to this work one day, hopefully before I
am taken off to the Home for the Befuddled. :)

Leo.
 

Attachments

No, I haven't.
I've also not observed the "issues" you note in your fancy colour plots either, when performing physical model testing.
Thus is this a quirk of the mathematical modelling, or just so minuscule, in scale, that it is not observed in real-life tank testing?

Of course you have never observed them.. The plots are not wave elevations. They
are the velocity components in the x, y and z directions on the free surface. I doubt
very much that you have ever been given measurements of the velocity vectors
around a model in a towing tank.

For simplicity, assume we have a 2D flow and we have measurements of the fluid
velocity at all points (x,y). The fluid velocity is a 2D vector, say (u,v).
You would not "see" the individual components of the velocity, u alone and v alone,
you only see the combined velocity (u,v).

Leo.
 
... Unfortunately, their moment coefficient slope is not as good and nor is the induced drag or the
strength of the (composite) wing tip singularity strength....
Probably not...but a simple “trend”….for an engineer (not a mathematician) is sufficient :p

Of course you have never observed them.. The plots are not wave elevations. They
are the velocity components in the x, y and z directions on the free surface. ...
I understand that….but a different/change in local velocity, can be observed in fluid flow, especially if it is not expected, whether we “understand” what we see or not. But it was just a….hmm….not seen that….comment, that’s all.

....You would not "see" the individual components of the velocity, u alone and v alone,
you only see the combined velocity (u,v).
Indeed…:)

Trends...not absolutes :cool:
 
I (tried to) read the plasma physics article on Tearing Mode Instabilities in magnetohydrodynamics (for about ten minutes). The velocity takes it's name from the initial problem condition. But like in the ship case, the initial transverse velocity is zero, and circumstances create a transverse perturbation velocity of a sort. But it is a diffusion effect. The rate is not really a bulk material transport rate.

We already have terms for motions for 6DoF in a gravity-oriented cartesian Earth Reference Frame. I don't see why those don't work. Some variation of heave, surge, and sway. This just feels like it would have a more familiar feel when working with vector operators and transform matrices.

Also, I think most people who are familiar with these velocity decompositions will default to thinking of y and z components as v and w perturbations, and want to treat them as proxies for energy components. As such, the v and w components are scalars and exist on the positive quarter-plane only. A more intuitive grey-scale rendering for the plots of the v and w components wouldn't use negative values at all since all velocities represent an energy gain. Only the x (u) component can have a negative perturbation representing energy loss.

And yeah, good to hear from you again.
 
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Your result for the lift coeffcient slope is very good, but I'm not convinced
that VLM is particularly robust. I don't have time to search for it, but I think
there is a very old thread here on bdn where Mark Drela also showed a good
approximation for the circular wing using his VLM.

After a bit of searching, I found the thread you (Leo) are referring to: lift without downwash? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/lift-without-downwash.44937/

That was followed up by a number of messages between the two of us concerning circular wings, VLM, etc. I've dabbled a bit more on those subjects since then, but will avoid hijacking this current thread with much more about those subjects.
 
I don't see any reason for a particular name for the +-y composants here; if anything, it adds confusion. PhilSweet expressed it better above than I can..... But the images are instructive and pedagogic, in my world for showing the directional changes of local velocities with different advance speeds in the zone of interest for propulsors, so thanx and good to have you back.
 
Probably not...but a simple “trend”….for an engineer (not a mathematician) is sufficient :p


I understand that….but a different/change in local velocity, can be observed in fluid flow, especially if it is not expected, whether we “understand” what we see or not. But it was just a….hmm….not seen that….comment, that’s all.


Indeed…:)

Trends...not absolutes :cool:
"Trends" will become apparent when I create scaled animations. Then you will be able to see how the
different velocity components change with length and depth-based Froude numbers.
 
"Trends" will become apparent when I create scaled animations. Then you will be able to see how the
different velocity components change with length and depth-based Froude numbers.

And then the burning question will then be, is it really an issue to consider when estimating the resistance for powering calculations (will i need a bigger engine now), or, is it just an interesting phenomenon?
 
And then the burning question will then be, is it really an issue to consider when estimating the resistance for powering calculations (will i need a bigger engine now), or, is it just an interesting phenomenon?
It is a "phenomenon" associated with all vessels that create a disturbance. :)

I like baeckmo's answer...
I don't see any reason for a particular name for the +-y composants here; if anything, it adds confusion. PhilSweet expressed it better above than I can..... But the images are instructive and pedagogic, in my world for showing the directional changes of local velocities with different advance speeds in the zone of interest for propulsors, so thanx and good to have you back.
Firstly, there definitely is no reason to start popularising the term "tearing
velocity".

Secondly, it is of possible interest to those concerned with inflow to propellers.

Thirdly, a very esoteric one that was little to do with resistance and powering:
how do the different perturbation velocities affect the electromagnetic signals
induced by the motion of sea water across the Earth's magnetic field? Do the
lateral velocities make it easier or more difficult to detect multihulls that
are not quite laterally symmetric because of heel, or because there are two
ships travelling together, one aft and to one side of the forward ship?
 
In conclusion...

I find the patterns beautiful and I have been trying to combine Kelvin wakes
(including perturbation velocity components) to create specified images. For
example, you could arrange a number of Havelock singularities that make a very
messy wave pattern downstream at some speeds. See, for example the program
Zgreen I released on bdn a long time ago.

But as they go faster, the wake changes until, at a particular speed, a face
appears, like the jesus on toast. :)

Some researchers in Japan and the UK beat me to it on 26 July 2026, and actually
made patterns in a wave tank, albeit not using Kelvin wakes.
1785377207666.webp



Now, if I stop posting answers to AdHoc and playing Civilization 7, I might
actually get some serious work done. :)

Leo.
 
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