T20 -- New development class

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by idkfa, Sep 26, 2011.

  1. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I should know in a week whether I get the A class I'm bidding on I'll not chase them too hard price wise so will have to see whether I win the auction. I would hope div 1 would allow a fair bit of liberty to choose components and innovative approaches the question is what defines a trimaran is it 3 hulls or could the hull be a buoyancy pod on a foil.
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    T-20(or so) development Class

    I saw the discussion in Raps thread and thought some of the ideas here could be revisited- lots of potential for a high performance 20' and under tri or homebuilt "sport" trimarans around the same length. Small tri's are terribly under rated(vs cats) compared to the potential of a performance 12-20' tri. Lots of room for innovation.
    And ,by the way, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

    Pictures: exact scale model of a high performance 19.5' "sport" tri. Crew sits on either side of cockpit and doesn't have to run ama to ama ever. Idea is great speed along with great comfort, dryness and ease of handling. Designed to sail off a beach:
     

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  3. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Thank you Doug for bumping that, I had forgotten that thread, I'll re read it

    RW
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    You're welcome-Merry Christmas!
     
  5. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I hope that, like me, some of you were able to get out trimaran sailing today.

    Back home for a break and, while digesting my Christmas lunch, I read this thread

    Has anything happened in 3 years, or is it still just talk? It's very easy to hype up ideas and costs, but few people really want to spend a lot of money doing a few weekend races, and even fewer are actually good enough sailors to race a high performance multihull to its best potential.

    I tend to race in the UK and in British Columbia, but I did race the 3 Bridge Fiasco in San Francisco a couple of years ago. In BC there are more regattas open to larger - ie no beach cat- multihulls than smaller boats. In the UK there are enough existing races open to a 20ft trimaran to make it worth while

    When I started the micro multihull class we not only had to work out a set of class rules, but also get clubs to set multihull races shorter than 100 miles (which was all MOCRA did at the time)

    Regarding tri/beach cat speeds, here is a quote from a Strike 15 trimaran owner, who is also an A cat sailor and a very experienced racer

    "Last Sunday during a three rounds regatta with 6 to 7 kts winds I was behind A class cat and Tornado with spinnaker, sometimes very close or before last A cats (despite my very bad starts !), but I consistently beat all the rest of the fleet including Darts (both 1 and 2 up). I achieved same course as A class cat upwind, slightly slower. Faster and closer than Darts upwind, faster and deeper downwind (main and jib only). I wait for comparison with more wind, next year, as it was the last regatta."

    And that is in a 15ft boat, so think what one 5ft longer could do, especially one fitted with a screecher?

    OK, enough, I'm going back out on the water again

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  6. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Doug, before you put off everyone from rereading this thread, can we back off on the foilly things for abit and talk more about developing a class where in shore 20ft Tri's can occasionally race and cruise. Full foiling for the moment just isn't going to happen, the boats are too heavy and the cost of the foils will be too higher premium for these little Tri's

    There is a real need for something us ex cat sailors can move onto, something which will let us revisit our youth and yet exciting enough to keep us interested and yet still be able to take our families for some fast day sailing without getting too wet.

    Yes you may argue the Weta is in that slot, sorry what we want is Weta's big brother on steroids.:)
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =================
    In my opinion, these are important design considerations that shouldn't be ignored or left laboring under so many false assumptions-so no as far as I'm concerned.
     
  8. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    So, seriously, what is wrong with a Firebird or Strider? Why do you want a boat that can sail in the Solent but not cross the Channel to France? What do your sail right now and where? Why do you want something else? PM me if you wish

    I think knowing answers to those questions from people like you would help find out how big a market there is for a J700 equivalent multihull.

    To Doug, I agree with Wayne. Please try to temper your enthusiasm, or build a 20ft foiling trimaran and show us all how good it is. Theory won't get you anywhere. And I'm afraid a few not too impressive sails of a R/C model aren't doing it for me.

    Remember it will be four years on Sunday since you started your thread. I've built three small trimarans in that time, 10/15/18ft. So I have had fun sailing real boats while you are still talking about how great foils are, without actually getting on the water at all. Sorry, rant over

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===============
    Well, I'm sorry to hear that, Richard. You must have seen a different boat than I did. To suggest that a test model in its first foiling video(in a 5mph breeze!) using two different altitude control systems for the first time on any size trimaran, and UptiP foils on the amas (that worked perfectly) for the first time on any trimaran "was not too impressive" is one of the most unfortunate, ridiculous comments I have heard yet about the Fire Arrow.
    The foil system on the Fire Arrow will allow a square or over square trimaran to fly the main hull in very light air as well as permit tremendous RM in stronger wind. And the foil system is 100% automatic requiring no adjustment while sailing. It's the kind of system that can completely change the attitude most people have toward small trimarans as compared to small cats. It is a system that allows high performance sailing w/o the crew having to move from ama to ama under sail. It has tremendous potential for "sport" trimarans as well as for all out race boats. And it can be easily beach sailed.

    Fire Arrow pictures taken 7/24/14:
    click-
     
  10. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    For a Tri in this size, foils are an important discussion.

    I do not think it is reasonable to try to outlaw lift from ama foils. There is just a tremendous advantage at the "foil assist" level.

    Ama volume can be less (although full length may still be advantageous) and yet the boat can be safer & and more stable in brisk conditions.

    This can be done with very simple technology. Angled straight foils help, but C foils are probably better.

    If a class is intentionally being limited to slow down the pace of boat obsolescence, a mast height limit and a simple rule of "sailed with at least one hull in the water (at least 20% of still submergence ) 98% of the time" sounds reasonable. Most would probably honor the "foil assist only" rule and not try to push the issue. However, if things were to get really competitive, some would be tempted.

    To go from foil assist to full foiling is a big leap at this point. We all know it is possible. However, we also know that it will be a while before multihull foiling technology matures enough such that an entire fleet of non-OD boats could be anywhere near "a level playing field" in foil performance.

    However, top performers that race as foils assist in class mode, could most likely have a second set of foils for full foiling for either fun or for competition in a more open forum.
     
  11. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    Richard,

    Sorry I don't keep better and I know this is something of a hijack, but I would really like to know more about the smaller of your recent boats. Was it tailored more for performance, or some other criteria. Were you happy with it or would you make big changes if you were to do it over again. My interest is based on my own boat I threw together this summer - http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/small-tri-test-platform-51551.html.
     
  12. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    At this point perhaps we should be just considering why we are considering Tri's and not Cat's in this discussion. Perhaps the title of the thread T20 is the clue, yes absolutely a Strider or Fireboard is something to compare and the there is nothing wrong in that, just not here in this thread, we can start another thread for that.

    Why my interest in Tri's, I race both F16's and A's here in England, the A's have become a foil cost nightmare for the moment ( that will stabilise eventually ) and the F16's are fantastic hot rods, sadly no you are not going to be allowed to do the type of racing I want to start with them, principally MOCRA type Solent club racing.

    Yes there are some monohull fleets that will give me the fast racing I desire but for that I would need deep pockets and probably 7 mates, each and every time I go racing. Sorry the logistics and expense would put me off. And then there is the Farrier style 25 - 30 footer which I could that with, but again to get comparative adrenaline to my simple Cats, you are talking about 60 - 70 K and two mates.

    So why a 20ft Tri, it's lightweight, will be just as fast as its big brothers, will pack your lunch and baubles in a small Cuddy, and yet could be used for fun day sailing on those days you want to just "have fun"

    We have long talked about this in the bar, as well as here on the Forum, then along comes a manufacturer with the Pulse who is willing to not only put a product on the water but who is willing to put their money into the development costs needed. Good on them and I foresee they won't be the only ones as the SeaRail 19 and suchlike are proving.

    So let's try and set up a working T20 class where both amatuer and professional manufacturers can come and play just like the F18 Class, equally, without this we will see small OD fleets building.

    So let's talk about a T20 box rule, 6.2 metres long, 4.5 metres wide, 9 metre mast, 17sqm main, 8.5sqm jib,14sqm foresail, 21sqm spinny on a 1 metre bowsprit, minimum 280kgs, foil assist amas ?
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    T-20

    Wayne, why not allow at least a square platform-you handicap the potential of the boat with that kind of unwarranted restriction.
     
  14. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Over square in small scale boats doesn't seem to work in my opinion, there seem to be some fairly well known designers with far more design nous than you and I put together 100 times designing at 4.5m, there seems to be consensus of boats already built, if you went wider you would have to increase the sail area, at the end of the day, why reinvent the wheel when you could have a forming class at 4.5.
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    If you don't think it will work(you're dead wrong) why outlaw it?
     
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