Systems Three Gel Magic?

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by endarve, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Typical answer.

    I asked for your example of the difference between structural epoxy and non-structural epoxy so we could have a real discussion.

    No answer. So far I don' think you know any real difference.
    Just stating opinions does not advance anyones knowledge on the forum.

    And you are completely full of it about adding fillers makes the resin weaker.
    The simplest proof is to add chopped fiberglass. I would make the obvious statement that glass cloth is also a filler.

    If you just want to talk about adding microballons or talc I could agree.

    So lets make this easier - what would you call a non-structural epoxy?
     
  2. endarve
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    endarve Junior Member

    No need to go on the personal attack. If you would do your own research with mfgs we wouldn't be having this conversation. If I posted my experience you wouldn't believe it either but it pales yours. Chopped fibers are the strongest filler. Now add enough fibers to make a gel and see how weak the mix is compared to a straight batch. Add 50% chop as a filler and see how the resins runs out on a vertical surface. Now go 75% and see what happens and also read what mfgs say about resin to glass ratios past 50/50. Go smash globs of different ratios of fillers in resin and see which crumbles first. I could go on but I didn't come here for that.
     
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Adding any filler or reinforcement to any epoxy, will change the physical properties to some degree. Some things may improve such as compression, while modulus of elongation might decrease over the straight resin/hardener mix. Knowing what does what to the mix is the key to good mixtures. It's extremely rare for me to use just a single material in a mix.

    All of the usual suspects in the marine epoxy industry, are essentially the same in physical properties, most being within a few percent of each other. There are some formulations that are more tolerant of this or that, but these are something the average guy doesn't use. For what it's worth, I use milled fibers all the time, but it's not the strongest filler material (by quite a lot BTW). I use milled fibers as a bond promoter, subtle stiffener and to improve tensile modulus. Most of us in the industry call this stuff "liquid 'glass" for the properties and color it offers.

    Simply put, all of the usual marine epoxies can be both a structural or cosmetic mix, once fillers are added and it just depends on the various choices and their ratios. You can also put a coagulant into the resin to get a thixotropic effect (gel), but I've found this of dubious value in a premix product that costs several more times once to ounce than mixing yourself. In other words, I haven't found gel making anything easier or faster in general laminating. If you like T88 or the other premixes, I can provide pretty much the same formula, so you can mix your own.

    Frankly, anyone paying West System and System Three pricing, hasn't been around the block very much in the industry, regardless of how long you've been playing with thermosets. I'm paying about $40 a gallon, for a standard BPA. It wets out nicely, isn't overly thin (my big complaint about RAKA), will blush, but only in high humidity, is fairly clear and has all the same physical attributes of the major brands. If you're willing to pay 2 - 3 times this per gallon, go for it. I also have a couple of special formulations from a local supplier, one is a super slow, that will not even kickoff, unless the temperatures are in the low to mid 70's and it's pot life in 90 degree heat is over 45 minutes, which is way better then the slows from the major players.
     
  4. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    I don't want this to be a personal attack.
    You made a statement, I just wanted to understand what you meant.

    Still no answer, besides, "I've got lots of experience".
     
  5. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    PAR,

    I appreciate your comments about alternate viable lower cost epoxies.
    I believe you have specified what you use so it would be easy to make a change.
    If I do a big project I'll think seriously about a change.
    Until then I have 3/4 gallon I'm not throwing away.
     
  6. endarve
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    endarve Junior Member

    Tough crowd here so I guess turnabout is fair play.

    There should be no mystery I am not a chemist and cannot explain the chemical difference between laminating and structural epoxy. Believe it or not, it is a fact and doesn't take much effort to confirm. So get your facts from the people who make the stuff instead of other places.

    PAR, remember you started this. You pay $40 gal in the boat building business and are calling my IQ out for "not been around the block" in the industry? I currently pay $35 gal retail for 2:1 laminating epoxy in 7.5 gal pales. 3 gal pails are $40 gal. at Fiberglass Florida in Rockledge, Fl. Buying by the drum with a fl biz tax number used to cut retail in half. They are local and I've been buying from them since opening about 20 yrs ago. I rarely buy less than 7.5 gal at a time so my cost is less than yours. Doubt it? Call them.

    Lastly, to send your insulting remark back, I will say you "haven't been around the block" if you think thickening generic laminating epoxy is equal in strength to structural epoxy adhesive. You are pipe dreaming and winging it. I agree that most laminating epoxies work the same, are close to each other, CAN be used "structurally" (your stand) and paying for the name doesn't make for economy. However, $75 +- is no big deal for me to buy Sys Three T88 or Gel for this particular job and is the better choice for max strength.

    Like I said, you guys are a tough crowd.
     
  7. missinginaction
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    missinginaction Senior Member

    "You are pipe dreaming and winging it. I agree that most laminating epoxies work the same, are close to each other, CAN be used "structurally" (your stand) and paying for the name doesn't make for economy. However, $75 +- is no big deal for me to buy Sys Three T88 or Gel for this particular job and is the better choice for max strength."

    Not a tough crowd, they're just trying to save you some money. Endarve, you're rebuilding a transom on a small sailboat. The way I see it there is nothing wrong with the way you wish to proceed with T-88 or gel magic. That said, I hear the pros here saying that your approach is not necessary and it is overly expensive. They would not do it the way you are. They would also, as a practical matter achieve exactly the same results.

    Will your method achieve greater strength? Let's say that it does, just for the sake of argument. In the end though, what difference does it make?

    The frame on a one ton pickup is much stronger than the one on my son's Honda Civic. The Civic could be called "weaker", but the Civic will never be called on to do the work of a one ton pickup.

    I say go to it. You have all the information you need. Good luck and be safe out there.

    MIA
     
  8. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I pay $40 per gallon for a single gallon of epoxy. I pay considerably less for bulk purchases.

    The bisphenol formulations used in T88 and the gel's, are the same resins used in their standard room temperature cure epoxies (SilverTip, 105, etc.). The only changes are some non-reactive modifiers, possibly some UV inhibitors, anticoagulants, non-foaming agents, etc. in the hardener, which all formulators put into their mixtures. Other than some minor differences, they are the same strength, stiffness, hardness, etc., of course depending on the additive contents employed, which as previously discussed do affect the physical properties to some degree.

    I'd like to see some testing on structural and non-structural epoxy formulations, as at this point you've just shown you have some experence, but little practical knowledge about the BPA molecule and its variations, nor the attributes these variations might impose on the cured matrix.
     
  9. endarve
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    endarve Junior Member

    You really need to quit making this about my ability, experience or whatever and go on to your own calling. I'm not trying to be an expert on resin chemistry or care to prove anything. I posted my thoughts and got a lot of unjustified negative flak for it.

    So far, nobody brings any empirical testing of their own to comment about, so I assume experience is lacking to learn it otherwise. An "engineer" and a "boat designer" saying thickening epoxy doesn't weaken it and laminating res is same as structural. Very surprising to hear this from people who claim to "know" but it is what it is.

    Don't ask for proof of anything from me. You can do empirical testing just like I have, making samples and destroying them. You are going to find laminating resin will shatter before structural. Also will find fillers weaken. Their tensile strengths are close but no cigar under high impact. I've done testing on all the cloths, fillers and resins I use and see much info posted that doesn't jive with my findings. Also T88 and Magic Gel specs are not the same as SYS 3 laminating resin. Clearly different published specs by the mfg.
     
  10. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    You were the one who made unfounded claims.
    You can't even define what you mean by "non-structural epoxy" - as far as I'm concerned you just invented the term.
    Then you changed the issue of structural and non structural to the difference between laminating epoxy and adhesive. Which actually is a real difference.

    No one asked you to be a chemist, nor to supply testing data - at least I didn't.

    All this dancing around simply makes me suspicious that you have no clue.
    If you have done testing (however informal) please specify what was the epoxy and additives that made a difference.

    I'm just looking for anything to support what you said.

    I'll check back one more time, then this "discussion" is over.
     
  11. endarve
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    endarve Junior Member

    Thanks for the note. Briefly, this build construction is very unusual from most and internet repair advice is not founded without seeing what I'm dealing with. I've replaced many transoms, stringers, floors, decks, bulkheads, bla bla bla and know how to do it cheap, fast or whatever. I would have asked for that info if needed. Regardless of naysayers, structural gels work easier for major gap filling on verticals and thickened resin is 2nd in being user friendly and strength. Yes it matters to me but if a one time $30+ material delta mattered I wouldn't be retired.

    I have to disagree with you about one thing, nobody answered my question about Magic Gel who has experience with the product. The "help" answers mostly made me ask why did I just join and post here.

    Thanks for the civil and respectful response.

    Enstince Darvett
     
  12. endarve
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    endarve Junior Member

    over and out
     
  13. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    No value here.
     
  14. endarve
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    endarve Junior Member

    Put me on your ignore list. You on going on mine after sending this.

    To remove a user from either the Buddy or Ignore Lists, un-tick the box next to their name and click the 'Save List' button.

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  15. ebnelson
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    ebnelson Junior Member

    I've used Gel Magic for gluing in G-10 epoxy tube sections. The tubes are my method of "hard spotting" through holes on my deck and hull. The non-sagging property works as advertised and I don't use enough to justify mixing my own concoction.

    The more the product is worked (i.e. stir stick, squeegee) the more the non sagging properties are broken down. It's also quite heavy to use on a large area since it's thick and can only be spread so much. I usually weight and mix the product on a flat plate instead of mixing in a cup.

    If you need more than a pint kit for your repair I'd probably explore other options first.
     
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