Sydney Hobart One Design.

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Moggy, Dec 19, 2014.

  1. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    You are.

    Really? Didn't you just say that the clubs "around there" are NOT specialized and they need to be to rebuild a class?

    You cannot have it both ways mate.

    All I am saying is that no one approach is correct for all. That the organizations in an area evolve to serve their members or they die. You seem to know what is best for them and would have the clubs tell the members how it will be. I won't be joining your club even if they sail the boat I like.

    We don't agree here.

  2. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,402
    Likes: 167, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member


    I completely agree that no one approach is correct everywhere, and I think I stated that earlier.

    I may have expressed myself poorly. The places where I used to live normally had specialist clubs. The sailing scene in those cities is enormously strong and has stood up pretty well over time.

    Where I now live has generalist clubs. The sailing scene is this city is not very strong and has declined quite dramatically. The geography is an enormous factor in the overall strength of the sport but not a factor in the decline, which in itself made the clubs even less specialised. The clubs are not going to die, but they ARE much less healthy so the evolutionary path has arguably not worked well. There is arguably a similar pattern in other areas.

    Many of us recognise this issue and want to change things in a very friendly way (like saying over a drink 'how can we all get together at one club more often') which is what the only growing class in the area did. It was split among clubs and doing poorly, now it's concentrated at one club and much more vibrant.

    If you won't join a club that restricts the craft they cater for then you probably would not be able to join a single club in Sydney, one of the sailing world's hotspots. You also may struggle to find a flower club, musical society, car club, cycling club, swimming club or any other type of club to join, since just about all clubs seem to restrict the devices members use in club events.

    This is not prejudice, since the course I'm arguing for means that, for example, if our small offshore yacht club gets going then Spoonie and I will have to 'ban' our Lasers from competing, and I will also have to 'ban' all my other craft. But without such specialisation, nothing can happen.

    I'm happy for you to disagree, just stating my case.

    EDIT - I may also add that these matters came up when I wrote an article about successful sailing clubs in remote areas. When I was researching the article, the people from these clubs regularly said that specialisation was one of the reasons they succeeded when other clubs failed.
  3. SpoonBoy
    Joined: Dec 2014
    Posts: 7
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 17
    Location: Sydney

    SpoonBoy Junior Member

    Moved dates... but appears to be:

    I'm starting to think I might be able to do it this year. Wasn't sure I'd have the boat ready but am pretty close now. Minimum crew of 4 means you're basically double handed. Says they may accept short handed entries... not sure what criteria they need.

    Bit hard to do that with a point to point / offshore race

    The bay to bay seem to make it stick some how. They have 5 divisions

    Division 1: Type 2 Sports Monohull Boats
    Division 2: Type 1 Monohull Boats
    Division 3: Type 1 Monohull Boats
    Division 4: Type 1 Monohull Boats
    Division 5: Type 3 Standard Multihulls and Type 4 Sports Multihulls

    You could split the mono's on length, or handicap. On length, I'd probably suggest open,10m,9m,7.5m. or something... you get the idea.

    So you either box rule it, or rating band it. Either option tends to favour the boats at the top of the band. one encourages long light boats with lots of sail area, the other long heavy boats with lots of sail area.

    or using the Spot devices. Costs about $200/device plus $200/year for the full blown tracking and service. You can also hire them from various places. AAA Battery powered... If you trawl through the track leaders site, you can find examples of yacht races that have used them in the past. I've also setup 1300 voip numbers in the past where people can call in with updates, leave a message, and it gets posted to the web.

    Makes for interesting listening, especially on the multi day events. The events on that page were "gorilla" style... just a bunch of people who happen to download the same course route and happened to start at roughly the same place at roughly the same time.... coincidently
  4. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,402
    Likes: 167, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Re courses - depending on infrastructure and course layout, the "big" boats could still do an extra leg or two at the end, particularly if boats are taking their own times as is common in regional distance races.

    However, of course it all depends on how big the performance spread is. I think I've been assuming a smaller performance spread, because essentially that's the attraction for me; I can run around far behind the big boats in other events.

    IMHO the issue of fleet spread is very real, and it seems to play a significant part in popularity. For example if we're catering for the current small monos and current 10m multis we have some boats that do 2.2 times the speed of others. That's the same spread of performance as if we were racing F18 cats against Sabots, or H 28s against Volvo 70s, TP 52s or Farr 40s, depending on which of the current 9-10m offshore multis turn up. Although my last offshore season was on a multi, personally if I wanted to race against boats that are that much different in performance I'd just race with the CYCA and similar clubs.

    Yes, some races have that sort of performance spread, but did any of them START with such a performance spread, and is it worth having such a spread?

    I'm not sure if an AMS rating band favours big boats, although there does seem to be a bias towards skinny older inshore-type boats (Adams 10s, BB10 Metres) in AMS and IRC. The old JOG rule firmly favoured smaller boats but the arrival of megabucks campaigns killed the boats like Gingerbread Man.

    Racetrack. Org.NZ is not a tracking device, but more like a way of creating unofficial arbitrary handicaps for boats spread over a wide area. It's not used for results and there are obvious issues when there are only a few boats that race in more than one area, because you don't get to work out how area A compares to area B.

    It's just that if we could get such a system going it could provide some common interest across regions; for example, people in Wollongong, for example, could see that there is a sistership to their boat racing out of Hobart and doing well, because it's sailing to a certain performance number.

    Racetrack isn't the only way to do it; I've corresponded with the guys from ISAF's Empirical Handicapping Committee and they have some good databases to draw from.

    Anyway, I'm off down to work on the boat for a couple of days. See you later!
  5. DickDastardly
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Sydney

    DickDastardly New Member

    Without buying into the mono-multi love fest (I sail both and love both) it was interesting how Team Oz fared in the Coffs race up until their dismasting, Beau Geste isn't an upwind focused boat at all and that 15 nm lead was surprisingly small. It was a tough race, (I navigated the overall winner) upwind into a nasty, nasty seaway and huge current so clearly that's not what that type of multi likes either.

    And I'd venture that they would similarly hate a serious upwind slog to Hobart - but that's no reason not to race them that way. But yes, CYCA is a mono-focused club, very conservative (ask the short-handed fraternity too) and not about to admit multis any time soon. It is what it is.

    But the market is a powerful thing, if there were large numbers of competitive multis that were adequately qualified to race to Hobart I've no doubt a race would be run.
  6. DickDastardly
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Sydney

    DickDastardly New Member

    I don't believe a one design is sensible at all as an offshore racing class but I'd certainly like to see a revived MG30 style boat and a revival of small boat offshore racing. A long while ago I raced the boat later known as Prion for a while and it was huge fun. Offshore in a 30 footer is great stuff but of course not for the faint hearted or unfit...
  7. DickDastardly
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Sydney

    DickDastardly New Member

    You've essentially described the GP33 Dead in the water sadly.
  8. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 2,097
    Likes: 41, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 436
    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Type 3 Standard Multihulls. ????
    Please explain. :confused:
  9. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 2,428
    Likes: 173, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 871
    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    Sounds like a medical condition or maybe a personality type?

  10. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,402
    Likes: 167, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    What are the problems you identify with offshore one designs? I agree they are problematic, partly because a one design tends to suffer on rating, but some OD classes seem to be pretty competitive on IRC.

    I agree that Cat 1/2 races on 30s are great fun. Personally I'd like to see something a bit more 'cruisy' than the MG30, maybe something closer to the Farr 31 IMS or a small version of your boat, because as the popularity of boats like the First 40.7, 40 and 45 seem to show, the cruiser/racer concept attracts more owners.

    The Coffs race this year seemed to show the problems that OZ offshore racing is facing - a fleet of much faster and bigger boats than it used to be, with entry numbers about a quarter of what they used to be. It's interesting to look at places like the UK, Ireland and France and see how strong their small-boat fleets are in comparison, and how small their typical "big boat" is. The Benn 40.7s that were 3rd and 4th last to Coffs would be comfortably in the fastest class in a 5-10 division fleet in France or Ireland......jeezers, it looks as if even the Annapolis -Newport race has more small boats. When the Aussie fleets are small and the boats are big even in comparison with a New York Yacht Club race things are looking weird!

    I haven't race monos offshore for eons - what do you reckon is killing the little boats?

    By the way, many congrats on another win!
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.