Sydney Hobart One Design.

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Moggy, Dec 19, 2014.

  1. SpoonBoy
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    SpoonBoy Junior Member

    I'm more than interested but a little way off getting my boat to cat 3/4 (including needing a stability assesment done) Rob H no longer has any paperwork for my Hick so Cat 1 & 2 is basically out without a significant expense at risk, and I think she measures in just shy of the required 9m's anyway for most races

    cat 3/4 race that coast hops up from say jervis bay to port stephens with a few diversions would be a lot of fun I think. A series of 1-2 day races plus sound round the cans racing. double handed + full crewed divisions.

    day 1: round the cans in jervis bay prelude. day 2 jervis - botany. day 4 Botany to pittwater. day 5 pittwater to Port Stephens, day 7 'round the cans port stephens finale'
     
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  2. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    I can't get out of my mind the image of a yacht club board member standing looking at a Trimaran and saying, "Every time I see a Multihull I have the urge to beat it to death with a stick."
    That is the attitude that us multihullers have had to put up with for all the years that have passed since Nat Herreshoff was banned from racing Catamarans in the late 19th century.
    Can't you appreciate that we are fed up with the bigotry.
    Yacht races should be available to ALL sailing vessels, no matter what the type.
    If other countries can do it ----why not here. :mad:
     
  3. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Great concept SB,
    I reckon a lay day at Jibbon rather than Botany bay would be cool for drinks & sand fun on the beach, The nine days from sat-sunday would be affordable off work. A program that was inclusive for family involvement might help too, a "cruise in company" contingent might help build numbers with such an event beside the serious racers with some great accomadation available at the destination.
    Seems like the discussion is moving away from "one design" & "leaning" another way.... with multis included of course;)
    Jeff.
     
  4. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    It's a choice to be fed up or otherwise annoyed..... just accept that while that joker was picking on the tri.... he was leaving some other poor bloke alone, those sentiments & attidudes are rooted in insecurities but there's generally only a few noisy oysters that carry on like that & will hang on like barnacles to their learned behavior patterns.

    Jeff.
     
  5. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Pat, can you actually provide some logical response to questions that have been posed to you before?

    1 - When the FACTS (as shown by old New York Times reports and other primary and secondary sources) show that the Herreshoff cats were NOT banned, why do you keep saying they were?

    2- Are you saying that no bunch of individuals ever have the right to conduct events just for certain types of equipment? Yes or no, please.

    3 - When so many other sporting and social clubs (including cat clubs, kiteboarding clubs, car clubs, surfing clubs, literary societies, music societies, cycling clubs, fishing clubs, skiff clubs, shorthanded sailing clubs, classic boat clubs, offshore multihull bodies, etc) do NOT make their events available to all types of equipment and device, why should mono clubs do it?

    I don't suppose you'll actually come up with an answer to these questions because that might distract you from complaining about what someone said 40 years ago......
     
  6. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Chris. You and I have been sparring with each other on this matter for years now on this and other forums.
    Can't we just call it quits and simply harbour our own opinions.
    To answer your questions.
    1. AFAIK Nats cats were banned from racing against the sandbaggers".
    If as you say, that is not true----then so be it.
    2. No I'm not. Individual small clubs can do as they want.
    The CYCA is a different matter. It has the responsibility to the whole of Australia to make the Hobart a National race, and is starting to become an International race. There was an American boat in this last race.
    It should be open to all classes of Sailboats.
    In Toronto Canada the CYRA did that with great success. The different boats all competed together, but in their separate classes. There were no problems.
    The RMYC in Pittwater has monos and multihulls sailing together in perfect harmony. I can't speak for the PAYC, but all the boats sail together in the Monday evening races, with no problems.
    And Yes Jeff. We just learned to offer the other cheek and got on with it.
     
  7. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    I can see Chris's points as well as Old Sailor's. I don't see how what other people chose to sail effects my enjoyment of what I like to sail. It is the same for marriage equality. Who you marry does not effect my relationship with my wife in the least. It is an emotional topic that defies logical argument.

    I have finally given up on the idea that boats of dissimilar types can be handicaped so they can race against each other. Heavy monos, sport boats, and multis have different performance envelopes. As Chris has pointed out, race schooners against schooners and sloops against sloops. Yet Chris does not argue that schooners and sloops cannot race in separate classes at the same regatta.

    There is no valid reason to exclude one class or another in local sail races. Mono's and Multi's can share the same racing area with no problems at all. Anyone that says differently has poor course management skills.

    If seeing a mono or multi out having fun while you are also out having fun bothers you, you have a problem. I won't say one is better than the other, they are just different.

    If your club is so well off that they would not welcome 5 more boat entry fees and 5 more crews buying drinks at the bar good on you. Most clubs are seeing reduced memberships and reduced revenue. Refusing fellow sailors with a shared passion for sail racing seems short sighted to me.

    Our club has a standing policy. If what you want to sail does not fit into an existing division all you need to do is have 5 boats and we will give you a start, take your money, and welcome you at the bar. We race PHRF monos, Cruising Cats, Cruising Monos, Beach Cats ... we have an open invitation to the local kite guys and two local OD fleets. If they want to sail, we will make it work.

    Same goes for the S-H OD idea ... There are plenty of OD classes that would qualify to enter the S-H ... Why don't they?
     
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  8. SpoonBoy
    Joined: Dec 2014
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    SpoonBoy Junior Member

    That could work... Cronulla SC seems quite active and offshore (cat 4) already which helps... Jervis Bay Cruising Club, Gosford or RPA? but based out of patonga, and then of course Nelson Bay. so may have enough club assistance along the way and sufficient VHF coverage close to the coast.

    In extending the OD or semi OD original theme, I'd still propose the EC33' (east coast 33) rule.. less than 33' (10.1m) must have at least 2 permanently installed bunks including cushions (part of structure not just pipe cots). otherwise similar to my previous comment ( 2 jibs, one main, 3 spins + relevant storm sails) no moveable ballast but stacking of certain items (ie sails) permitted for offshore with a declared weight not exceeding X. Shall otherwise comply with cat 3.

    Open division, EC33 and ECM33 (multihull) division crewed and double handed. Open Rally Class (cruising). AP allowed (or mandated as western Aus does) in double handed divisions

    Use AMS, or AMS derived handicap. Points and General Classification Time. Maybe points for the main trophy's with a "lowest corrected GC" trophy

    Cat 3 at all times, including inshore races.

    Last week of sept / early oct perhaps to take in school holiday periods and hopefully not clash with other major events... or some time in feb so it's warmer and outside school holidays

    The Bay to Bay in queensland attracts hundreds of boats apparently but is shorter and lower safety cat. Call this the Bay Run or East Coast classic or something. Potential Sponosors could include the likes of the Navy due to Jervis bay, plus some of the cruiser type boat makers (seawind, jenneau, benny etc...) or the more grand prix makers (farr/mchonagy etc..)

    Anyway... probably the wrong thread to discuss this.
     
  9. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    I reckon you could get some traction there.... it's a cool name, East Coast Classic sounds good.. or East Coast Cooler...
    The length restriction might or might not be good, plenty boats fit in but maybe some keen to have a go might not or do they fit in the open rally class, numbers are good.
    I think we're still somewhere.....? near topic..... same water, for some of it..
    Jeff.
     
  10. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    So, to get an idea of what's happening in small yachts, I checked all the ones that I could find that are racing offshore (Cat 4+) in NSW. There's also a few more further north, from Port Mac on.

    The numbers are pretty small, but we could probably also encourage some other boats out of the woodwork; maybe enough other boats could turn up to allow for the fact that we won't get all of the boats that are active at one time or place all to turn up to any one regatta.

    I've looked at boats that would fit in the Super 30 size limit, or be significantly slower than Super 30s. Personally I'd like to encourage budget offshore racing by encouraging older and smaller boats. The boats that are active seem to fit into three rough groups, as below;

    Blue Division

    Brand X, "Hicks 33", Port Hacking
    Three Adams 10.6s, Batemans Bay
    Shaya Moya (Mt Gay 30) Cronulla/Port Hacking
    Farr 1020, Jervis Bay (???)
    Selkie, J/92, CYCA
    Even Finer, Dufour 34, Gosford
    Gusto, Sydney 32, MHYC (???)
    Chutzpah, Davidson 3/4 tonner, Jervis Bay
    Archambault Grand Surprise 32, Manly
    Steadfast (Jeanneau 32) Cronulla/Port Hacking
    Crow Bar, MASRM 920, Gosford (for sale)
    Indulgence, Young 88, SASC
    Hick 30


    Green Division

    One or two Northshore 33s/340s, Gosford (IIRC)
    Velocity, Ben First 31.7 (?) CYCA
    Nutracker, unknown, Newcastle Cruising Yacht Club
    Paper Moon, Spencer 32. SASC
    Can Can, Ben 347, RSYS (?)
    Privateer, Ben 345, CYCA
    Pantomine IV, Moody 10.5, CYCA
    Mr Christian, classic Swanson 38', SASC
    Spindrift, Van de Stadt 34, SASC
    Katinka, Cole 35, CYCA
    Motion, Bounty 35, Jervis Bay
    Azzuro, S&S 34 (Mod) CYCA
    Magic, Ben 325, SASC
    Kurraka, Brolga 33, CYCA


    Red Division

    One or two S 80s, Batemans (?)
    Mulloka, Ranger 30, CYCA
    Lunacy, Contessa 32, SASC
    Lahara, 34' classic Muir sloop, SASC
    Carter 30, Gosford (for sale/sold)
    Serendipity 28, BBSC (?)
    Cavalier 28 (???) Wollongong
    Rikki (???) Dufour 1970s quarter ton, Wollongong
    Warrain, Herreshoff H 28, Newcastle Cruising Yacht Club


    If we started off fairly modestly, the SASC Lion Island race could be a good event as it already attracts a few little old boats. We could then race with the RMYC Pittwater Sunday event, perhaps, or race to Bird Island and then back to Sydney after the Lion Island race ended.

    Another approach could be to find some regional representatives to try to spark up local interest; there's some chance of getting half a dozen or more boats to race together a few times down the South Coast as the Batemans, Jervis and Wollongong fleets all do short offshores. That suits me these days.

    Personally I'm not so much into the Super 30 style of racing, as the Melges and Mumms have been over that ground recently; I'd like something more for the older boats and cruiser/racers doing a combination of Cat 3 passages and short events.

    The AMS system is cheap and works reasonably well. We could also possibly see if we could use the Yachting Victoria 'class mark' system (not yardstick) which is a PHRF style rating they use as a basis for Port Phillip arbitrary handicap.

    EDIT - stage 1 could be to set up a web page/Facebook page; if someone does that I'll try to contact all the owners listed above so we can get some ideas thrown around.

    There's also quite a few interstate boats in the same bracket, and I noticed that the South Aussies had a half ton class get together last month; an Aussie small offshore yacht page could bring us together and get some inspiration around
     
  11. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    As I think we agreed earlier, the question about whether clubs should try to cater for everyone is pretty complicated (at least IMHO). Many of the most successful clubs are specialist ones, which seems to show that specialising works well. The club that runs the Hobart is a classic example - just about everything it does is for offshore racing boats.

    The biggest off-the-beach clubs here are very strict on what classes can race- one threw a class that had about 10 active boats out of the club entirely, and tried to get rid of a class with 25 active boats. They have about 125 active dinghies, and about 60% or more race every week. The second biggest club is similar, the third is much less formal but 95% of people buy into one of the accepted classes.

    What it seems to show is that in a large sailing scene, specialisation works because when clubs specialise in certain types, you get great racing. You can get clubs that cater for a wide range of classes, but very few of them are large and none, if any, cater for ALL types of sailing. That surely teaches us a lesson.

    Where we now are has two clubs that both race almost anything. It's chaos in many ways - we're trying to revive one class but we half of them sail at one club and half of them sail at the other club. We have got a decent local fleet just once this season - if one club said "if you want to sail Brand X go there, if you want to sail class Y come here" then we'd have a viable fleet.

    It's the same with the small multis - half a dozen here, half a dozen there and no one getting a decent fleet. We've largely backed out of racing together on the weekend because the split in the sailing scene means that we cannot get critical mass, and therefore the sailing is not as much fun.

    The overall result seems to be that the sailing scene is weaker than if clubs specialised. It's not a case of getting five extra members - it's a case where you allow in five different boats that dilute the fleet and so you lose 10 members who get sick of racing in a menagerie of classes without decent competition.

    In a very small sailing scene allowing everyone into a club may work, but isn't specialisation a natural part of human activity? From music to art to street machines to philosophical societies, people show that they love clubs and groups that specialise within a particular area of a field of interest - why is sailing any different?
     
  12. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Wow ...

    A club telling people to go elsewhere ...

    If the logistics permit sailing at either club why not cooperate with the other club and alternate venues?

    There is a reason that the fleet is split. If having a viable, competitive fleet was a priority the sailors of the class would have gathered at one club or the other on their own. They don't need to be told.

    IMO Clubs exist to serve the members. If the members wanted the chaos to change it would have.
     
  13. SpoonBoy
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    SpoonBoy Junior Member

    Well... brand X is a hick 35, in which case there's luna sea and others... There was a MAT1010 at middle harbour. I'm sure you could probably get a few FT10's or Y88's into the mix fairly easily. There are two very decked out First 30's at balmain alone.

    My thoughts were to avoid the super 30 label anyway, especially when you at the direction the new 30'ers are heading which is just out and out Grand Prix, and have a division/race that encourages a 30-something that is multipurpose. Heading north in spring /summer you're more likely to get nor easters and a 30'er goes to windward like a 30'er regardless of how big your spinnaker is.

    what about the multi scene? There used to be a couple of 30 odd foot cats in Pittwater I thought? I noticed a Toro34 on a mooring in Middle Harbour?

    That could be a plan! though doesn't the Lion Island race come back to sydney? Maybe you can make a long weekend of it. A friday harbour race, lion island. Sunday race, Bird island back to sydney.

    There is also the heaven can wait race. While not an offshore event, given I've ridden mountain bikes around in circles solo for 24hrs, that format has some appeal to me ;)

    I can probably do that... will do something in the next few days
     
  14. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Yep, a club telling people to go elsewhere, and it could well be close to the biggest dinghy sailing club in the world. Sure there are local factors, but who is going to tell them that they are getting it wrong?

    Yep, clubs exist to serve the members. Time after time we see that the members' preference around here is for specialist clubs.

    With respect to my local scene, logistics don't really permit sailing at either club. For a start, some boats in class A are owned by clubs B and C and therefore effectively tied to racing in the region where those clubs race with club C, while other owners also sail other classes that only sail at club D and therefore they are members there and store their boats there. To sail at club A as well as club B means having membership at two clubs ($$$$) and sailing one day for one class (ie when the crew is unavailable and therefore the Lasers come out) and another day for the other class, as well as conflicting club duties, twilight races, club championships etc. This makes family and sailing life extremely difficult.

    Both clubs also operate sail training schemes that end up with people sailing the same class. With respect, we are the ones in the city, on the water, in the class and in the clubs. We recognise the issue and would like to solve it, but it's much easier to sit on the other side of the world than it is to deal with the practicalities here.

    If our class-based approach is so crap why does this small corner of the world arguably lead dinghy sailing in terms of Olympic results, fleet numbers and development? With respect, maybe you should give the specialised club model a go?

    And as I've said, it's not just sailing that follows the specialist club or group model - it's everything from music societies, to floral societies, model railway clubs, car clubs, bike clubs, canoe clubs, art groups, yada yada yada.

    If it works, why not accept it? After all, isn't the existence of a sailboat forum in a boat design forum - rather than say just a forum for all boating interests, or a forum for stuff in general - an example of the strengths of specialisation?
     

  15. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Is the HCW still going? I was thinking of heading up to it with the new cat but I thought it had gone quiet.

    Good point re the Mat 1010 etc and keeping this separate from the S30 scene.

    I was tending to aim at the smaller boats. If we get a big spread of speeds we could look at the model Botany Bay YC used to run, where they did multi-lap courses and the overall prize was calculated on the course the slower boats did. The fast boats had their time taken at the slower boats finish and that was used for overall honours and for the slower boats class. The slow boats then finished while the faster boats did another lap. The class win for the faster boats was then taken from their times including the extra lap. It's more work but it means that both fast and slow boats can get a decent length race without anyone having to wait around too long.

    Personally I don't think the cats would fit in with speeds and performance characteristics. As noted above, this is not cat bias (I just came back from a night of cat racing on my own boat and my last offshore season was on a tri) but the fact that IMHO events lose too much when they are too loose.

    Inshore races are cool; I was thinking that the two things that small cruiser/racers miss are (1) offshore racing and (2) racing on a rating or even class system rather than arbitrary, both inshore and offshore. If a class was aimed at offshore racing and rating racing, instead of the silly beige inshore golf handicap that is all we can get, it would be a great thing IMHO. It's bizarre that Melbourne, Perth, Hobart and even Batemans Bay offer 'proper' racing on rating for small offshore-type yachts but there is nothing in Sydney.

    That'd be great about a website etc. We could kick something around about some copy and a request for input from other owners. Even if we couldn't get actual class racing happening for a while it would be a fine thing just to get the owners of this type of boat out there and communicating. I wonder if the guy who runs the Racetrack virtual ranking system for Crew.Org.NZ could do anything similar for the small offshore boats? It's probably impossible but any gathering of minds and publicity would be a fine thing.

    PS; I'd forgotten about the change in the Lion Island race, which happened years ago.
     
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