Sydney-Hobart: CBTF wins!(prediction)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Dec 25, 2005.

  1. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Powered systems for cruising and classes designed for less than able bodied sailors are GREAT! The performance gains from moving ballast are not disputed. That moving ballast systems can be safe is not a question.

    Powered systems while racing ruin the sport. The limit to moving ballast should be the same as the limit to trimming sails: Human or wind power.

    Using a trim tab and the boat's speed to help lift the ballast is elegant. It's good design within the tradition of using only the sailor, wind, and water to race. Copping out and using an engine is just wrong. The engine is used to increase boat speed, just as if it was turning a prop.

    You are right, those of us that think sail races should be sailed have little chance of changing the way things are going.

    We do have a small chance. We can make sure that OUR clubs enforce Rule 52. We can vote in our country's sailing organizations and get rule 86 changed to prohibit Rule 52 modifications by sailing instructions. We can require that One-Design classes that allow power race amongst themselves and their results are kept separate (just as Multihulls are not allowed to race against Monos in most races).

    There is NO reason that a ballast system cannot be powered by the sails and boat rather than an engine. The same holds true for electronic navigation aids and self steering, the power can come from the sails and hull. Since there is only so much power available from the wind, a designer should have to decide how much power can be used to power systems rather than move the boat. Adding an engine should not be an option.

    I don't want to see powered bar-stools racing against sprinters. It's not that I dislike powered bar-stools, its just that power during a human event should be separated.

    I don't want to ban CBTF or any other clever solution to increasing boat speed. I would like to see Rule 52 get cast in stone except for One-Design classes.

    Failing that, I hope that the boats that require outside assistance in the form of engine power get rated so that manual powered boats have an equal chance of winning.

    Sailing has always been about power to weight. A simple requirement to include in-hull ballast equal to the weight of an equal amount of human power would kill the power assisted boats. 10 HP to move ballast = 20,000 lbs in-hull ballast, simple. 100 HP ballast pump = 200,000 lbs in-hull ballast.

    Fair is fair.
     
  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Power Ballast Systems

    Never going to stop it, Randy-at least I hope your kind of thinking gets voted down.
     
  3. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    This is a G.W. Bush Jr reply - and, if not Doug?
     
  4. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    But ok, here is Wild Oats on the run, for the sake of showing at least a picture, here is one , thaks to SA.......
     

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  5. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    I agree, 100's of years of banning power assist while racing has come to an end. That is very sad. It cheapens the efforts of those that raced using only their skill, the wind and water to race.

    I sincerely hope that there are enough sailors feel that a human using only their skill is what sailing is all about to slow the march of "progress".

    When Hunter, Catalina, and Beneteau are selling moving ballast, power assisted boats, I'll have seen the end of sailing.

    Lucky for me, some of the features that add value to a cruising boat will be hard to duplicate with moving ballast systems (powered or not).

    Shoal draft, the ability to ground with little or no damage, load carrying ability etc. are higher priorities than speed for many sailors.

    I just don't think that adding powered systems to increase speed has any place on racing sailboats. When I want speed from power I use a power boat. When I want to make an efficient passage I'll motorsail. When I race, I'll sail, in peace and quiet.

    I have no problem getting "beaten" by a boat that is motorsailing, I don't race against them, they aren't sailing.
     
  6. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Doug, if powered CBTF is the way of the future, why did Neville Crichton say in an interview (NZ Boating IIRC) that he's moving to a TP52 - fixed keel, no power assist?

    And it's interesting to read Sean Langman's quote after the S-H. Sean's boat this year may not have been CBTF, but it was a power-assisted canter.

    "(Langman's old) Open 66 is the sort of rough and ready flier that will always break her crew before she breaks herself, while the bigger maxi AAPT, with her electronic winches and canting keel, is an altogether more sophisticated if somewhat more brittle beast. You arm-wrestle the big skiff to Hobart, constantly grinding the winches to catch waves. On the maxi the sails come in and out with the press of a button.

    “It’s very dry and comfortable,” Langman observed at Constitution Dock.

    “I went to the bow a few times - never got wet there either.

    “We had a dry navigation station so we could see what was going on. It’s good having the technology but I must say I do prefer sailing where you feel like you have been out there challenging the whole thing.

    “I normally lose weight on these things but I think I’ve put on four kilos and I’m ready to go out because I’ve slept a lot.”

    So while everybody else is wrapped in the new technology, and the fact that ocean racing rather than the America's Cup is where the big advances in yacht design are happening these days, Langman seems less than impressed."

    Apparently Syd Fischer is thinking of getting electric winches for Rags 'cause it's cheaper than getting grinders. In Syd's way it's probably a very dry joke, but if it's true what will happen? A few guys will get chucked off Ragamuffin. So there will be fewer people in the sport.

    Exactly how does opening the gap between big-buck pro effort and reducing the number of sailors improve the sport?

    By the way, how much do you know of the culture of the Hobart? How many S-Hs have you done? If you haven't done any, how do you know how competitors regard the race and how can you know how the powered CBTF boats will affect those feelings?

    Australian sailing has always been strongly based around affordable boats. A move to large expensive CBTF boats is a dagger aimed at the roots of the sport in this country.

    Sailing in the US is much more about the big dollar classes, and sailing in the US is proportionately much less popular than it is here. We don't want the sport here to go the same way as it has there.

    And about the rules - as mentioned, under the very same part of the RRS that allows canters to race, the AYF could allow a powerboat with no sails at all to "win" the Hobart. That is obviously ludicrous, but it is just as legal.

    Since the exemptions allow such an obviously ludicrous result, the fact that they exist cannot mean that we should exempt things carte blanche.

    Finally, you CAN put genies back in the bottle. There are many instances where "advances" have been ruled out. For example, changing mainsails; the 150-236 footers of yesteryear; hydraulics that changed the stern shape; excreting polymers from the hull to reduce resistance; trapezes on offshore racing yachts; lifting keels downwind on offshore racers; boats with low LPS; titanium and plastics in certain applications (ie stanchions in the S-H); external weather routing (banned in most or all races); twin spinnakers on sloops.
     
  7. Skippy
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    Skippy Senior Member

    Lorsail: Luckily for the world you guys have NO PRAYER to stop CBTF/ canting keel technology!
    Nobody wants to stop it, Doug. You're getting paranoid.

    Lorsail: About a third of the CBTF boats built so far have been cruising boats. The technology is fast, safe and easy to use.
    It's just not sailing (sort of).

    Lorsail: But canting keels(esp CBTF) HAS PROVEN itself to be a very fast safe, technology for increasing monohull speed. ... Face it or not: the genie will never be put back in the bottle and power assisted movable ballast technology is here to stay.
    So is motor-driven prop drive. It's just not sailing. :)

    usa2: What about using the grinders to generate electricity to charge the batteries?
    Ultimately, all we're talking about here is definitions and personal preference. What about the auxiliary? Some people make do with a skulling oar. What about GPS? Some people prefer the challenge of a sextant/charts/chronometer. Other options would be to drive a canter with manual and/or solar and/or a windvane. That would avoid land-based energy sources. What about food brought from shore? That's a land-based energy source :)

    Not only does there not have to be one standard for "sailing", there SHOULD be multiple standards to please and entertain different groups of people. That's why we have dinghies, cruisers, racers, multihulls, OD, PHRF, and---please forgive me---stinkpots :p. The main point is not one universal dividing line between "sailing" and "motoring". The issue right now is Doug calling other people's opinions "hogwash" and accusing them of "bending the language" to "disparage" things. It's just basic potty training. Doug needs to get a little respect for other people's opinions. Even Frank is friendly toward his fellow posters :rolleyes:

    RHough: I agree, 100's of years of banning power assist while racing has come to an end. That is very sad. It cheapens the efforts of those that raced using only their skill, the wind and water to race.
    I don't think it has to be bad. All it takes is separate classes. I think that would be fun for everybody.
     
  8. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    I completely agree! Boats with wildly different abilities should be in separate classes.

    Comparing a power assisted boat to a traditional single hulled boat is silly.

    Records must be sailed under the same rules to be compared.

    When the rules are changed, a boat sets a new record. It does not beat a record set under different rules.

    For most of history, sailing records were just that. The only rule was no power to make the boat faster. No limit on boat size or crew number, just no power to make the boat faster.

    No power assisted boat should be able to challenge the records set by sailing craft.

    The logical end to the cycle would be a totally power assisted un-crewed boat. The "skipper" would sit in the clubhouse and use telemetry to "sail" the boat. On a small scale RC boats do this now. Sail changes, trim, and ballast are all power assisted systems controlled by radio from the shore. No one would consider racing an RC boat against a traditional pond sailer, they are not in the same class. Neither are crewed power assisted boats in the same class as non-assisted boats.
     
  9. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    "We are racing for fun, if you want to join our stable, can you afford to loose?"

    That was my first lesson in topsport. My horses won the Derby, twice the gold cup and some other nice races in France. My best horse was at his prime time only six kilo's under Sassafras, one of the world's best horses at that time.
    Our horses were treated better than the prima ballerina of the Bolshoi - so that's why I am a purist - I had to fight with my little money always against the financial better one's, nontheless I have beaten them - better the horses did.

    I could do that only by the harsh rules of the Jockey club, who did not give in to the whimps of the rich. So, chances were often even.

    Allowing the rules to be changed in favour ofmthe engine-assisted sailingyachts, how poor an exercise of sportivity!
     
  10. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    Lorsail, I don't think anyone has said CBTF is bad or that it doesn't work. We all seem to agree that it does yield faster boats.
    The point that's been made several times is that, if the engine must be running for the boat to sail, then it is a motorsailer and not a pure sailboat. It is a question of definition, not a criticism of what has proven to be quite an intriguing technology.
    I would certainly support CBTF boats racing against conventional monos and multis if the keel were moved by crew-powered hydraulic pumps. With a motor doing the work, the boat is no longer on an equivalent footing with its non-engine competitors.
     
  11. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    Some colleagues of mine are working on a project called MAST (Mostly Autonomous Sailboat Team). They're currently building a 2-metre prototype with a 3-metre mast- the only input from the skipper on shore is the rudder angle. All sail trim, etc. is to be controlled by the boat's onboard computer and servos. Essentially the skipper tells the boat which direction to go, and the boat sails itself there. No propeller, just servos and sails.
     
  12. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Very cool!

    Add a GPS and autopilot system and the boat could be programmed to sail itself around a course. :)

    Stan Honey's autopilot on his Cal 40 can be programmed to surf ocean waves, all that needs to be added is computer controlled sail trim and the crew can be passengers.
     
  13. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Wild Oats

    Well,if you guys want to try to perpetrate a myth that Wild Oats wasn't sailing that's your business. I don't think you would feel that way if you ever sailed on the boat or even talked to someone who has. Look at the picture D'Artois posted or the other pix on SA: that's not sailing?! The absurdity of a "not sailing" comment reduces your argument to just plain siliness.
    The diesel does what diesels do in so many other applications: it moves a heavy weight from one place to another-nothing more,nothing less. To say that a boat that uses a diesel to do that is "not sailing" is absolutely ridiculous.....
     
  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Automaran

    Matt, if you get more info or if you have it and can post it here or under another topic I'd love to hear more about the Autonomous Project.
    In 2001 some guys-Brett Otteson and Thomas Vose-
    from Princetons Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering took one of my 68" Flyer³
    RC trimarans and converted it to what they called "Automaran". The boat used apparent two computers and was designed to explore autonomous operation.
    I heard of a project quite some time ago out of Europe that claimed to have the funding to sail an "RC" trimaran 38' or so in length around the world using satelite radio control accompanied with video. Don't know what happened there...
    Anyway, I'm real interested if you can post more info....
     

  15. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Doug,

    This is strictly a rhetorical, comedic question, but...

    I'm going to assume from your posture on this, that technology has all the anwers for you. By that reasoning, does that mean that when you hit your Golden Years and your male unit has a serious malfunction (and don't kid yourself on this , Bubba... they all do) that you will be looking for a pocket nuke to power-up your masculine prowess so you can still get the strut going down at the beach in your thong Speedo?

    Techno solutions rule. Go diesels for keels!

    Chris
     
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