Sydney-Hobart 2012

[Doug Lord]

Sh

This is from post 63-ignored or forgotten by most retro's including ,particularly, pdwilely twice now:

I'd like to see Banque Populaire V race. That would give an idea of real speed.
I'd like to see a 100' DSS equipped race boat with a small fixed keel(minimum required for self righting) and very fast on-deck movable ballast extending to windward 20'.
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The World Speed Sailing Record Council has a category that I agree with: "Powered Systems". They don't try to denigrate a great racing sailboat like Wild Oats XI with cheap, baseless shots like "powerboat" or" motor sailer". You can call Wild Oats XI anything you want but some of the comments reflect more poorly on the commenter than on the fastest sailboat in Sydney-Hobart race history.

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PDwilely, you forget awfully easy-or you just don't give a damn.
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As to anyone agreeing with me-everybody in a position to make a decision in CCYA and IRC apparently agrees with me because despite the 3-5 retro's here and those standing on the dock in Hobart whineing NOTHING HAS CHANGED! IRC obviously believes-and the record proves- that boats like Wild Oats can be fairly handicaped.

A small portion of a story from The Daily Sail: ( read the whole story here: http://www.thedailysail.com/offshore...-hobart-triple )

Wild Oats XI’s impressive list of achievements now includes:

- First to win line, handicap and race record honours twice
- First yacht to win line and handicap honours twice
- First yacht to break her own race record (she lowered her 2005 mark by 17 minutes to one day, 18 hours, 23 minutes, and 12 seconds
- A record six line honours in eight starts
- A record four consecutive line honours
- A record run from the start line to the first turning mark on Sydney Harbour

Richards is now setting his sights on equaling the record of seven wins. “You get close to something like that and it becomes a real goal for us,” he said. “I’m sure there’ll be bigger and better boats out next year, so we’ll just see what happens.”

Bob Oatley has already declared the yacht will be back for next year’s race. He said that it was an exceptional effort by his crew, a perfect preparation for the race, modifications made to the hull and keel, and the inclusion of a huge Code Zero headsail in the yacht’s sail inventory, which brought this year’s grand result in the big race.

 

[rwatson]

The World Speed Sailing Record Council has a category that I agree with: "Powered Systems".

yes that's more like it BUT THE CYCA DOESNT HAVE THAT CATEGORY !!!!

That's what PDW is saying.

Its nice you are sticking up for the reputation of Wild Oats, you are wasting your time. That isnt even an issue !!

The whole argument is about the 'fairness' of the powered canting keel designs.

The plain fact is that its an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, and for people interested in SAILING, its an abberation.

 

[Doug Lord]

yes that's more like it BUT THE CYCA DOESNT HAVE THAT CATEGORY !!!!

That's what PDW is saying.

Its nice you are sticking up for the reputation of Wild Oats, you are wasting your time. That isnt even an issue !!

The whole argument is about the 'fairness' of the powered canting keel designs.

The plain fact is that its an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, and for people interested in SAILING, its an abberation.

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But as I just said: Wild Oats XI races in IRC which has proven time and again to fairly rate boats like Wild Oats.
She is scored under IRC every time she sails the Sydney-Hobart whether she wins line honors or not. Line honors is first boat to finish-IRC is handicap

 

[Timothy]

For me it is a question of stored power. I don't think anyone objects to boats using the tides the current or surfing the waves to get to the finish line faster. I think that as long as a boat uses the elements to produce all the power it requires while under way then it should be allowed in an open class. I am not sure know how I would feel about a boat that could extract hydrogen from the water using wind hydro and solar to run an electric engine powered by fuel cells but I don't imagine that is about to happen any time soon. I might allow the crew to eat.

 

[Doug Lord]

Sh

Good post Timothy. I don't think any sailor likes to sail with the noise of an engine and I bet as soon as a viable quiet electic system or fuel cell comes along the boats that need power will switch over. But as you can see from some of the more unreasonable retro's some attitudes may never change.
In the meantime, we get to see spectacular yachts like Wild Oats in the SH once a year!

 

[CT249]

Damn, dragged in again by Doug's rubber-pretzel logic.....

On the one hand, Doug lists Wild Oats XI's achievement as;

"- First to win line, handicap and race record honours twice
- First yacht to win line and handicap honours twice
- First yacht to break her own race record (she lowered her 2005 mark by 17 minutes to one day, 18 hours, 23 minutes, and 12 seconds
- A record six line honours in eight starts
- A record four consecutive line honours
- A record run from the start line to the first turning mark on Sydney Harbour"

and then on the other hand, he justifies the fact that she is not in a power-assist category by saying;

"Wild Oats XI races in IRC which has proven time and again to fairly rate boats like Wild Oats."

But the line honours and records that make up most of Oat's palmares are NOT ones that are calculated under IRC! Whether or not power assist boats are rated fairly by IRC is completely irrelevant when talking line honours in the Hobart, which is NOT restricted by IRC but by LOA. Whether power assist boats are banned by IRC, rated fairly by IRC or rated unfairly by IRC does not matter when it came to the line honours and race records that form the major part of Wild Oat's palmares. Therefore the claim that IRC makes power assisted boats fair competitors for line honours is untrue.

This is not about being "retro" or other facile adjectives that are used in place of facts and logic. This is about issues such as the fact that allowing power-assisted canters form the "mainstream maxi" fleet has lead to a situation where the category is so small and unpopular that we have had only about 8 boats built in around a decade, with no mainstream race-machine maxis/supermaxis under construction. This is about the fact that the race that attracts more canting keel "supermaxis" than any other is only getting small fleets, despite an economic boom and in an era where similar races are getting much stronger ones. This is about the fact that the 30m canting keel supermaxi class is so unpopular that for the first time in history we also have a restricted maxi class (banning canting keels) of the same LOA. This is about the fact that the canting keel supermaxi class is so unpopular that for the first time in history, the modern offshore maxis are outnumbered as a class-racing fleet by the ancient designs of the J Class! This is about the fact that the Volvo race has attracted its smallest ever fleet in since it adopted big canters. This is about the fact that using physical effort to trim sails and increase RM has always been a major part of the sport, but some boats are now allowed to escape those issues.

Innovative thinking would react to the fact that the canting keel supermaxi fleet has been the least successful top-end class in the sport for decades and that powered canters have not become a major part of the mainstream IRC/ORC/PHRF style big-boat racing that is the mainstay of our sport. Blinkered people with rigid ideas are the ones who would ignore such undeniable facts.

 

[Doug Lord]

Sh

Lawyering again , ct?! I never once claimed:
"Therefore the claim that IRC makes power assisted boats fair competitors for line honours" is untrue."

Only a quack could twist what I have said to mean that! That is just an obnoxious distortion of the facts!!
Wild Oats XI multiple wins of the Tattersals Cup were done under IRC. The fact that she also won line honors is just confirmation of what a great boat she is.
The fact that she hasn't won the Tattersals Cup every time she won line honors is a tribute to the fairness of IRC. And, yes, in the real world it does matter.
I thought you had me on ignore? You tell the "truth" in mighty peculiar ways.....

Wild Oats XI’s impressive list of achievements now includes:

NOTE: Every single time Wild Oats XI has raced the Sydney-Hobart she has been scored under IRC even when she won Line Honors only.
- First to win line, handicap(IRC) and race record honours twice
- First yacht to win line and handicap(IRC) honours twice
- First yacht to break her own race record (she lowered her 2005 mark by 17 minutes to one day, 18 hours, 23 minutes, and 12 seconds
- A record six line honours in eight starts
- A record four consecutive line honours
- A record run from the start line to the first turning mark on Sydney Harbour

Go Wild Oats!

 

[CT249]

You can take people off ignore, Doug, y'know.

I'll try again for people who cannot understand....

Some people said that there should be a separate category in the Hobart for power-assist boats.

You said "The World Speed Sailing Record Council has a category that I agree with: "Powered Systems" (post 181). The WSRRC category for powered system is an elapsed time category - that is, not corrected time. So in post 181 YOU were obviously talking elapsed time.

RWatson replied in post 182, noting that there was no powered systems category in the Hobart and therefore that canters had an unfair advantage. Since he was quoting your post 181, he was obviously also talking about elapsed time.

So the "conversation" was quite clearly about elapsed time results. Your post 183 then brought IRC into it, saying "Wild Oats XI races in IRC which has proven time and again to fairly rate boats like Wild Oats."

You were in a "conversation" in which the previous two posts had been about elapsed time when you raised IRC. If you were not trying to say that IRC made power assisted boats fair competitors for elapsed time honours, then why bring it IRC into a discussion in which the previous two posts had been about elapsed time results?

 

[Doug Lord]

You can take people off ignore, Doug, y'know.

I'll try again for people who cannot understand....

Some people said that there should be a separate category in the Hobart for power-assist boats.

You said "The World Speed Sailing Record Council has a category that I agree with: "Powered Systems" (post 181). The WSRRC category for powered system is an elapsed time category - that is, not corrected time. So in post 181 YOU were obviously talking elapsed time.

RWatson replied in post 182, noting that there was no powered systems category in the Hobart and therefore that canters had an unfair advantage. Since he was quoting your post 181, he was obviously also talking about elapsed time.

So the "conversation" was quite clearly about elapsed time results. Your post 183 then brought IRC into it, saying "Wild Oats XI races in IRC which has proven time and again to fairly rate boats like Wild Oats."

You were in a "conversation" in which the previous two posts had been about elapsed time when you raised IRC. If you were not trying to say that IRC made power assisted boats fair competitors for elapsed time honours, then why bring it IRC into a discussion in which the previous two posts had been about elapsed time results?

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Jeez, how convoluted can you get???? Starting with post 181 I have mentioned IRC and line honors in each post since it is critical to understanding the SH: there IS a separate category in the SH and that is IRC that produces a proven fair* rating allowing boats like Wild Oats to compete under a handicap system even if they are also racing for line honors. I'm not going thru it again-I have explained it very clearly and stand by it 100%.
* anybody who says IRC is unfair is just flat out wrong for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The fairness of the IRC rating has been proven many times over. When a modern high tech boat just wins Line Honors there is little grumbling but when the same boat wins IRC(Tattersals Cup) and Line Honors the howling begins. It's just absurd...
Go Wild Oats!

 

[Gary Baigent]

Methinks you doth protest etc. Doug,
I don't give a rat's flatulence about IRC or handicapping, the whole blatant point of motorised sailers is this point; they're Armstronging cheaters. They're BS. They're phonies, not yachts but motorised stupidity.
Democratically you're way outnumbered. Yachting people turn their backs on them.
Can't wait for the stinkers to be fashionably (if you can call the small numbers of motorsailers fashionable) replaced by maxi DSS. Then there'll a volte face from big spenders by dropping their cheaters,
"Oh yeah, DSS is the new thing, screw multihulls, not going there ... but with DSS we don't have to carry a tonne of diesel. I was in my heart of hearts always against the cheater movement, yeah, right."
And you, Doug, the apologist who knows the "retros" are right, you'll be sucking up to the new wealthy attitudes too.
Yes, I'm dreaming. Pigs will fly like angels.

 

[Doug Lord]

Sh

Gary, I'm no "apologist"- I'm a celebratist: I celebrate new technology that works-like canting keels , DSS, TNZ's foiler(and their main foil), and
Sail Rocket and so on and on.....

Go Wild Oats!

 

[Gary Baigent]

You finish with that asinine "Go Wild Oats" again, Doug, and I'll get my son, who has just flown to the US, to hunt you down and whip you with barbed wire.
Athough he is not the violent sort - maybe I'll have to come across myself.

 

[powerabout]

isnt wild oats the ONLY boat in the Hobart that is purpose built just for that race?

 

[Doug Lord]

Sh

You finish with that asinine "Go Wild Oats" again, Doug, and I'll get my son, who has just flown to the US, to hunt you down and whip you with barbed wire.
Athough he is not the violent sort - maybe I'll have to come across myself.

-------------------
You mean this?

Go Wild Oats!!

Hell, someone's got to cheer them on......

 

[CT 249]

======================
Jeez, how convoluted can you get???? Starting with post 181 I have mentioned IRC and line honors in each post since it is critical to understanding the SH: there IS a separate category in the SH and that is IRC that produces a proven fair* rating allowing boats like Wild Oats to compete under a handicap system even if they are also racing for line honors. I'm not going thru it again-I have explained it very clearly and stand by it 100%.
* anybody who says IRC is unfair is just flat out wrong for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The fairness of the IRC rating has been proven many times over. When a modern high tech boat just wins Line Honors there is little grumbling but when the same boat wins IRC(Tattersals Cup) and Line Honors the howling begins. It's just absurd...
Go Wild Oats!

Doug, that is the funniest thing you've ever written.

You've never actually done the race and (correct me if I'm wrong) never done a similar race or raced under IRC.

The last time I did the Hobart I also wrote the explanation of how the corrected time system works for the CYCA's official Sydney-Hobart programme, and also wrote an article on IRC for the CYCA magazine. Text versions are still on the 'net. So I have looked into these things in detail with (for example) Mike Unwin from the IRC office and with the CYCA Sailing Office and therefore have a reasonable grasp of the systems, thanks. I don't need your explanations.

Just for you I will make it very simple....

IRC DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH LINE HONOURS /ELAPSED TIME IN THE SYDNEY TO HOBART.

IRC IS NOT A FACTOR IN LINE HONOURS/ELAPSED TIME IN THE HOBART

THE IRC IS NOT INVOLVED IN HOBART LINE HONOURS/ELAPSED TIME

Since IRC is irrelevant for line honours/elapsed time, whether or not IRC treats power assisted canters fairly or not is completely and utterly irrelevant when discussing whether such boats can fairly race for line honours/elapsed time against boats without power assist or whether they should have a separate category like the WSSRC does.