Swain BS_36 Stability curve

Brent, why do you always challenges others to make your case, but fail to comply when others ask of you to produce :?:

But I have nothing to hide but my blue water experience is a bit modest compare to others. My claim to fame is as a steel boat builder... To be a builder you do not necessary need to sail....same as a pilot does not need to know how to build a plane.

I only once crossed some of the big blue on a delivery trip on a 40ft to Mauritius and the weather was shitty. Distance about 4000km non stop.
Done two delivery (38ft & 44ft) trips from Port Elizabeth to Port Owen (from east coast around Cape of Good Hope) up the west coast, trips of about 1900km each. One trip was made during April and the weather was to say at least crappy and had to motor sail most of the way with seas of about 5 meters and more most of the way.
Going into Mosselbay for repairs late at night in a heavy blow we were broadsided at the entrance of harbour and knocked down with the mast hitting water - the impact so brutal the toilet was knocked off it mounting ending in the saloon...the boat was a Lavranos 44ft. At Struisbaai - about 5km from Cape Agullas - we took shelter due of the bad seas before rounding the most southern point of Africa. This you have to experience to believe - little wonder this stretch of coast has the highest ratio of wrecks per mile anywhere in the world....

Then of course I had my own boat (Tom Thumb 24 in steel) I sail regularly on the east coast of SA for quite a number of years - clocked about 6000km in this boat. During the early 90's I regularly crewed on the racing circuit - Algoa week challenge in Port Elizabeth - on the boat Swimlion.

To get back to your boat and its stability; Empty cans makes the loudest noise.

Its all OK for you to make noises about the "strength" and safety of your boat but it seems most of them sits idle (live aboard) or sail in the placid waters of BC and its bays. I tell you this, have you ever sailed the coasts of South Africa, Indian or Atlantic side? No. In a storm it will destroy the flimsy tin can construction of the BS boats. We have waves that sunk many a big commercial ship and not so long ago had a tanker in harbour with holes knocked right through the bow and you could easily drive a double decked bus through both sides...
This is the very reason not a single one of your boats are build here, its sub standard in scantling and unsafe - structurally and stability wise.
Perhaps when you sail the lower southern latitudes, you will have a different opinion of building safer boats...

 

No, you're incorrect, again, as I've pointed out in the post you've quoted. I've been south to Ensenada, across to Hawaii, & back home. I learned nothing about yacht design while doing so. One does no more than consider inadequacies on the boat they are on in such circumstances. Designing or building require different skill sets & knowledge. But you've proven this yourself, because your offshore experience taught you SFA about boat building & design. While Tad & Wynand can speak for themselves, someone told me about a bit of Tad's experience offshore & I'd say he has you beat. One only has to look at Wynand's web-site to know that he is the "Hallberg-Rassy" of builders In comparison to your own "coronado" class.

Let's be honest, you're just throwing out silly comments because you can't adequately address the issue of this thread & because your hope is that the thread is long enough that fewer will read it. I suggest that Jeff trim the fat, here, & just keep the posts that are relevant to the OP. Interesting that not one of the builders/owners of your BS36 has stepped up for the inclining test offer. Deafening silence speaks louder than words?

 

Perhaps one of the owners *has* done the inclining test and didn't like the result?

As this thread has literally gone to ****, I can only agree that it be pruned & locked. It's obvious 'Jack/Brent' still hasn't learnt a thing but the information posted here by Tad on the stability issue is very valuable to any would-be builder.

One may also notice that 'Jack/Brent' has also backed away from his claim about the 4000 ft-lbs of righting moment due to the mast. My calculations suggest the correct figure is more like 0 at 180 deg from vertical up, 70 kg-m at an angle of 135 deg and -1400 kg-m at 90 deg. This based on the figures for mast buoyancy I posted earlier and predicated on 2 assumptions: first, the mast is sealed and second, it stays attached.

PDW

 

Hmmm, maybe its not so bad PD. I dont think any of us begrudge the time we spend reading and replying, and the lengthy conversations are more fun than hard work.

If 'Jack' can still be inspired to put up any comments, it always leads to valuable info from, and for other readers ( perhaps potential BS buyers ) to consider.

I for one regard your input and that of many others in this thread to be of lasting value.

 

Having just showered off the grime after about 6 hours welding & grinding I'd have to agree with you.

Thanks for the compliment, I've done flame wars on usenet in the past, these days I at least try to stay reasonably on point.

PDW

 

Go back and read post 364. It's all there.
Most of the BS 36 footers end up doing long ocean cruises, and several have done circumnavigations. One 26 did the NW passage in a single season, no damage whatever. Several have rounded the Cape of Good hope. Then there is the one in the photos Junklee posted on the origamiboats discussion, with the photos of her in the surf, and Junklee's account of sailing her back to BC again.
No they don't stay in BC's protected inside passage. One is on her way to Cape Horn and South Georgia at the moment. Not exactly smooth water sailing. She encountered a storm which did major damage in Valdiva, just before they arrived,, unscathed .
Mike's experience is that of the common "one trip expert " in BC.
I don;'t think Wynand's experience could be done without learning the importance of good gear and welded down deck hardware, in a way you couldn't learn from a book. .
No progress in any field was ever made without dissent and disagreement. Progress in metal boatbuilding is not likely to be any different.
No conflict , no progress.

 

Ask anyone who has the single keel version.

 

So, how many trips do I need to make me a qualified designer? Will my trip to Asia be sufficient? No, Brent, 100,000Nm wouldn't do it without much study, much practice, & one or more decent mentors. You're also forgetting my experience with the navy, & with the CG on the East Coast & on the RCMP multi-hull ("Radon"?) in Hecate. How old were you when you started sailing in unprotected waters, Brent? I was 9. I just don't blow my own horn like you do, because there are always the Greg Elliots of the world to put us to shame. In other words, again, while offshore sailing may give one an appreciation for design aspects, it does not a designer make.

Most of the 36 footers do long ocean passages? Most? How thick was Winston's hull on the 27' he took through the NW passage? 1/4", wasn't it? With transverse hull support, wasn't it? I did have a pretty good look at it when Ray Donaldson was selling it at Harbour Yacht Sales. Definitely was a boat built according to the intentions of it's owner. One had to step off the boat to get enough room to change one's mind. a real skyscraper of a pilothouse, as well. Definitely not the "run of the mill" Brent boat.

 

LOL It does my steelworker's heart good to read this! Don't worry if you wake up one morning with "the claw", it does go away, eventually.

Just wondering, if I recall correctly, you're an academic+ with experience on ice breakers? Was there a time when you were dancing with ma nature that you felt yourself metamorphised into a designer? If so, maybe I was just too dense for "the change". Always a caterpillar...

 

When do we bury this idiotic happening?

Hack Jickson or Bull... Swai.
is going over and over through his PR statements and BS claims, and we provide the platform.

His idea is just insane, premature or unproven (pick your poison) and does never provide a safe, seagoing boat of any sort for less than the average amount of money.
PERIOD

DO NOT BUILD HIS SCRAP JUNKS

is the message

THEY ARE COMPLETELY UNSAFE AND UNPROVEN !!!

Have a nice day
Hägar

 

I'm retired these days. I consult on software design and I own the IP to a fairly esoteric bit of software that's used in a couple of labs. I did spend a fair amount of time on ice breakers in a past job, yeah.

So while I'm a designer in my field, I'm not a boat designer and never will be. I don't have the math, I don't have the artistic ability to visualise the lines I want. The best I could be is to 'design' derivatives of other peoples' designs. Better to play to my strengths and build other peoples' designs.

On this thread I've come to the conclusion that the only definitive way to determine the stability of a BS 36 would be to build one from scratch as there are so many variants that unless one measured a lot, the information would be of very limited value. Brent has mentioned one with a 6' draft, the plans say 5' draft, where did the extra foot come from? And so we go.

On another thing entirely I'm getting near to doing a pile of welding 316 stainless to A36 carbon steel, all above the WL. I've got plenty of stick electrodes but I also picked up a 15kg spool of 0.9mm E309 wire. Reading Sandy & Gena's Web site I noticed they used standard Argon/CO2 shielding gas. My supplier claims I need a tri-mix, others say pure Argon is OK. What's your opinion?

PDW

 

pd
go to www.metalboatbuilding.org and ask a guy called Kevin, he is not a boatbuilder as such but he knows a great deal abt welding, more than any person i met

 

No rocket science here PD. You basically have two choices doing stainless with MIG; (based on my experience as a boilermaker)

1. Argon UHP (ultra high purity) which is best but expensive. With this gas you will have a clean run, especially when you arc - stop start - and will not leave a dark spot/flash (burn) on the weld and really not necessary to pickle clean the weld and adjacent material as the results are clean and shiny.

2. Argon ASH 2 (standard CO2) also known as Argo Shield 5 in my country; with this gas you will not have a shiny clean weld and you need to pickle clean the weld and adjacent materials that are dark and "burned".

But why migrate to another forum for answers when you have all the experts here?
Welder/Fitter is an expert (coded) welder and perhaps he can chime in giving you the best advice.

 

Thanks, Wynand. I hoped you'd offer what you knew as well as Mike. As I said these welds are all above the WL, basically welding doubler plates to the deck etc for mooring bitts made from 316 pipe, hatch coamings from flat bar, cleats and the like. I'm going to paint the welds anyway so the cosmetic appearance isn't a big concern, only the soundness of the weld. I don't have any experience using a MIG with stainless, was lucky to pick up a couple of 15kg spools of wire cheaply so now, why not?

I've got Migshield which is the brand name Liquid Air gives to what BOC calls Argo Shield so I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same gas mix.

I did see a guy doing some stainless welds with flux cored wire and they came out beautiful. Cost of the wire is downright scary though, $200 for a 1kg spool. I got both of my 15kg spools of solid for less than that - it was at mate's rates of course, not retail.

PDW

 

PDW
For the 309 solid mig wire
Short circuit transfer, tri mix
Axial spray transfer , bi mix

It will weld with pure argon but the shielding gas has a huge affect on the properties of the weld and not for the better
Go with the wire manufacture recomendations
Tom