Surface Drive - propeller protection for beaching

Discussion in 'Surface Drives' started by yodani, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 190
    Likes: 1, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    Hi there,

    I am new to Surface drives and have no experience with them but I have read a lot about them. I am interested in a surface drive with protected propeller for beaching and shallow water with logs, weed etc. Almost all of the current designs don't offer proper protection.

    The only drives I found with a sandshoe are the ones produced by Simplicity see picture attached. I wonder how this design will affect performance? http://www.simplicity-marine.com/smd1.htm

    From what I have seen there are problems with disturbed water in front of the propeller resulting in cavitation etc.

    I wonder if a surface drive like the one from Power-Vent used by Nava - http://www.nava.ca/ can be protected by a sandshoe?

    Another question would be - how does a surface propeller deal with weeds? I have seen the Go-Devil type of motors with surface drives but they have different applications and props.

    I am interested in surface drives due to their simplicity, durability and shallow draft capabilities. See my other posts if you are interested in my plans:

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/je...weed-shallow-water-solution-needed-35675.html

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/bo...-high-speed-shallow-draft-oxymoron-35664.html

    I have investigated the jet-drives but the community here convinced me jets are not for my application so I am trying my luck here. The most attractive hull for my application is the one from M-ship found here - http://www.mshipco.com/commercial/moreinfo/utilityworkboat.html

    Any advice from experienced people would be welcomed. Thank you.

    Daniel
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  2. bulk-head
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 58
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -5
    Location: Antigua

    bulk-head Junior Member

    The thundercats race right onto the beach with prop shields. Might be useful.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. claydog
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 71
    Likes: 2, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 69
    Location: michigan

    claydog Junior Member

    Yodani,

    We seem to be looking for a boat with very similar qualities, although for different purposes, and following a similar learning curve. I’ll be following your threads with interest as I build up a CAD model for the boat I’d like to build for myself.

    Regards Drew
     
  4. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 190
    Likes: 1, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    Hi Drew,

    I am studying the possibilities for this boat since a couple of years now and as I have explained in my other threads listed above, this is like an oximoron. I like the simplicity and reliability of fixed shaft and diesel engine. It all goes down to economics but also in my case to the environmental issues. The M-hull might have its problems and a lot of hype but the fact that is a stable platform and low wake (the lowest I could find) makes it my first choice. Now the drive system is a pain... Konrad legs would cost about 15.000$/leg, Arnesons will be 20.000 for the cheapest model and a fixed shaft will be by my calculations about 6000$ (with surface prop of about 2500$) and by far the most reliable of them all.

    I am waiting for some comments about my original problem with the prop protection and also would like to know if anybody around here had experience with the Power-Vent system. Some say it is great... some that is worthless... it is so hard to get good information about it. I have read a few threads where someone said he went on such a boat and it ran great but no further detail was given.

    About the M-hull there's no first hand info. I found an article a year ago about a fishing boat build by M-ship but that was it. Duffy has that M240 and two other models using this hull but they are electric boats moving slow. If Duffy chose that platform its because of the efficiency and stability not for the low wake :).

    The workboat shown on the M-ship website looks great and I would love to talk with its owner... but could not find any info about where it is operating... Alaska is big.

    It would be great to have all the features I am looking for in one boat:
    - Shallow draft low wake
    - Slow and fast (up to 40km/h would do)
    - Fixed shaft surface drive with diesel engine (Power-Vent style).
    - Protected surface propeller (Skeg or Sandshoe)
    - Flat deck
    - Stable aluminium hull
    - Another bonus for me would be a hybrid drive like the one from Steyr or Nanni for silent cruising in the reserve (1-2 hours at trawling speed would do).

    Now that Christmas is near I was hoping Santa is a boat freak riding Hickman sea sled...

    What is your boat going to look like? Size and use?
     
  5. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 190
    Likes: 1, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    I have seen those but they are outboards. From what I know surface drives are much more sensitive about turbulence in front of the prop... I might be wrong ... that's why I asked for advice here as I'm willing to learn.

    I shall also write to Power Vent ... they might enlighten me. I will post here if I find out.

    Thanks

    Daniel
     
  6. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 190
    Likes: 1, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    Chinese Surface Drive for 5000$ including propeller

    Anyone familiar with this knock off surface drive? I have contacted the manufacturer and I thought it might interest someone here what answer I got:
    http://greenbay.en.alibaba.com/prod...peller_for_speed_boat_work_boat.html#inSearch



    Thank you for your inquiry.

    Please refer to enclosed datasheet of our MSD surface drive, it was developed by our own patent rights, and has been improved and with a good reliability now.

    Please lets me know the main dimension of the boat so that I can advise one suitable surface drive for you.

    and can you send us more information about your company, we are looking for a MSD surface dealer now, do you have any interesting about it?Please do not hesitate to contact us.

    Hope this help.
    Best regards!

    Jason

    Me
    Hi there Mr. Jason,

    We are interested in using it in a tour boat 10m long with a beam of 3.2 m flat bottom. The boat will be used also in shallow water sometimes weed infested. I wonder if your system can work with some type of weedless propeller or if the current set-up can handle weeds ? What are the reversing capabilities?

    We would be interested in such cooperation for the future if price is write and the product works. Please send me pricing for the appropriate unit or for all the units you sell so we can compare with competitor products.

    Wish you all the best and hope to hear from you soon.

    Thanks for your kind inquiry.
    Firstly wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

    After checking with engineers, we recommend model MSD200L surface drive for application. Please check attached drawing of MSD200L for reference.

    Generally, for fishing boat, surface drive is very important in shallow water. There are 2 important questions have to check with you:
    1) About your boat, is it a single engines or two engines?
    2) Is there any photo to show for our reference?

    For recommended MSD200L, made from carbon steel material, it is a high tension material. The center parts(ball) is stainless steel material. Absolutely it can handle weeds, the reversing capability is OK, we have successfully helped our customers to design and choose before.

    As we are the first cooperation, and MSD was with ourself patent, we can make you an special offer with EX-workshop unitprice USD5,000.00 as detail follows:

    MSD200L surface drive(carbon steel material) + general propeller

    Could you please tell about your budget?
    Sincerely we want to build a partnership with you. If only we can help to promote the ptoject, we will do.

    Waiting for your early reply.
    Best Regards.

    Jason

    Find below some pictures of the drive and some technical drawings. What do you say?
    Gud prais ... gud prais :))
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Rik
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 127
    Likes: 45, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 242
    Location: California

    Rik Senior Member

    Wow, there certainly are a lot of copies of Arneson Surface Drives..
     
  8. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 190
    Likes: 1, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    Hi Rik,
    And as they say - As we are the first cooperation, and MSD was with ourself patent

    They have the patent :).

    What is your opinion about the question I posed above about the protection and sandshoe? Do you have any experience with that? I know you are the Arneson man around here so you might have an idea.
     
  9. Rik
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 127
    Likes: 45, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 242
    Location: California

    Rik Senior Member

    What do you currently use? How does it react to the grass and other obstacles? How do you currently address these issues?

    If you place anything in front of the water flow to the propellers it will cause some disturbance as this is undeniable. Now how much and is excessive or possibly is the disturbance a manageable level or a trade off between damage and functionality is the question.
     
  10. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 190
    Likes: 1, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    Hi Rik,
    Currenntly I have no speed boats except outboard ones going 40-50km/h. These are small boats and deal well with weeds if trimmed up, the leg drags the weed but wen reversed it gets off.

    The bigger tour boats have inboards with classic prop and rudder protected by sandshoe. They go everywhere and grass is cleaned reversing. the only problem I have currently is with the cooling in shallow water with weed. Plan to change to Keel Cooling.

    I would be willing to sacrifice some high speed performance for protection. This will be a new build so anything is possible. I know you provided the drives for Stilleto so I plan to build a similar hull just like the one mentioned in the previous posts. Did you get any feedback from M-ship on how surface drives behave?
     
  11. portacruise
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 1,120
    Likes: 32, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 218
    Location: USA

    portacruise Senior Member

    Asian long tail motors should work in very shallow water and weed. The prop at the end is on a balanced cantilever and can be manually lifted up into the air to clear weed and go in surface drive like propulsion. Can be used in higher power applications than go devil...

    Hope this helps.

    Porta
     
  12. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 190
    Likes: 1, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    Thanks Porta for the sugestion but as I explained I will use a diesel inboard with fixed shaft. I am aware about these type of engines as my father still has one made in East Germany called Tummler.

    I found a great concept boat from Ven-T Boats claming to have some patents for the model but I have no clue how they get these patents...
    http://www.rbbi.com/company/ingenium/ven-tboats/ven-tboats.htm
    They use a skeg and some interesting flipback
    rudders. I wonder what happened with them as
    there are no updates on the website since 2008. I
    think the didn't get the expected funds. It is a
    Power-Vent boat with air-cooled engine. The
    interesting part for me is the way they protect the
    prop.

    http://www.ven-tboats.com/exp.html

    There is also a short Video-clip with the boat there.
     
  13. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 3,324
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1819
    Location: Adriatic sea

    CDK retired engineer

    Yodani, did you already look at Saro?
    Their website at http://www.saro-bootsantriebe.de is a mess, but they may be better engineers than website builders.
    At least they do not weld their products together from construction steel like your Mr. Jason. And they tested at least one prototype with a boat and a real engine attached, not just a 2 hp electric motor in a factory hall.

    I came across Saro several years ago when they were US based and tried to attract investors like all other propulsion pioneers.

    There is also Q-SPD (http://www.q-spd.com) , they inspired me to build my own tunnel drives with rudders adjacent to the prop.
     
  14. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 190
    Likes: 1, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    Hi CDK,

    Yes I am aware of the SARO and Q-spd and have been reading about them here on the forum. I have contacted SARO for some details but never got an answer. There is not much info on the internet about them either. I wonder what their prices are and also how their stuff works. I didn't find any person around here that uses their drives. Do you have any info on that?

    As for Mr. Jason what can I say... I was just doing some research and I came across their system. It was installed on various boats too as the pictures show but sure there is no feedback about their products in the boaters world.

    Anyway my question here was how would surface props behave when a prop protector, sandshoe is installed. Yesterday I found the boat prototype produced by Ven-T Boats in 2007 and that answered my question somehow. From they website the video showed a good handling but didn't show the backing abilities.

    Power-Vent seems to have all the qualities I am looking for and I am still waiting for their answer as I have sent them some questions about the system. Put a sandshoe under it and it is the ultimate shallow drive for muddy weedy waters.

    Any Power-Vent user out there?
     

    Attached Files:


  15. claydog
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 71
    Likes: 2, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 69
    Location: michigan

    claydog Junior Member

    Right now I'm thinkin 25-30 foot aluminum Cat with twin 150 hp 2 strokes attached to surface drives.

    I started out with the thought of modifying an existing pontoon boat to suit my usage as there are 100s of used ones for sale within a couple hour drive of my home on any given day. A 25-30 foot pontoon with 150-200 hp it would be good about 70% of the time for fishing/family/friends on inland lakes and rivers. The other 30% is fishing 3-5 miles off shore on the Great lakes in calm weather. To do that with a pontoon I would want the deck raised 6 in to a foot above the stock deck height, then I would want to sheet the underside of the deck and deck risers with aluminum to reduce drag and help handle the bigger chop on the Great lakes. Once I raised the deck, the motor mounting system would have to be lowered to match the raised deck. At this point starting with a clean sheet of paper seemed like a good idea.:idea:
    The 2 main problems I have with pontoons is that the power head of an out board or the doghouse of an I/O is an inconvenience at best for fishing off the back and in the way of loading kids and their tubes/skis/wake boards on the back. I also feel that the best looking pontoons have about as much aesthetic appeal of a farm tractor with custom paint. To clean up the rear deck space, and since I’d be moving the motor anyway, I thought that going to twin jet drives (maybe from a PWC) mounted in the rear of each pontoon would be a slick solution for rear deck space. That led me to a Cat hulled boat and having little personal experience with jet drives I found my way here and am now learning about surface drives .


    regards Drew
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 2, 2011
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.