Suppose a Hard Carbon Crackdown

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by sharpii2, Jan 28, 2021.

?

What would happen to the planing powerboat hulls?

  1. They would simply be used less.

    60.0%
  2. Most of them would be scrapped.

    10.0%
  3. Some of them at least would be converted into displacement powerboats.

    30.0%
  1. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 844
    Likes: 26, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    And a Model T over 100 years old got 35mpg, better than most economy cars today, safer than the tin cans being built today, easy to fix, an probably less polluting.They were so big you could almost convert them to a land yacht/pocket yacht. Sure they topped out at 40mph but got you point A 2 point B reliably.
    30 years ago we lived w dial phones, listening to modern eco bureaucrat philosophy we should b progressing n upgrading towards switchboard operators
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  2. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 844
    Likes: 26, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Mia, using the OB on your 25 footer seems you r doing displacement speed and getting slightly less fuel economy than what an actual displacement boat would get.
    Amazing considering the hull and prop are causing huge drag. Maybe taking out extra weight n drag of the IB engine n prop would make a 20hp OB sufficient for all needs just as efficient as displacement at lower speeds, and gain a little extra rm, only put OB inboard to prevent pooping
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  3. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,106
    Likes: 961, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    A Model T is safer than today's cars?

    Wow. I need to pay closer attention here.

    My great grandmother fell put of a T and died. Got run over by her own son. Cars back then didn't have safety belts or safety door latches. They were 'safer' because of low speeds. If the bureaucrats you so quickly condemn flow restricted the cars to below 70mph; highway deaths would drop by more than half, but in the US, people would scream. Our bureaucracies are so weak, we can't even enforce a mask rule to save a quarter million people in a pandemic.

    Cafe standards were enacted in the mid 70:s and up until then pretty much every car sold got 13 mpg. After that, mpg typicals doubled, but many cars got 3-4 times better.

    A Prius gets 50mpg. When the Saudis play their next little gas game with us, or the speculators game, everyone will wish they had one of these sippers.

    I drive a 2004 rusty Chevy. Wife drives a Tesla S. Her comparative cost os about $1.80 a gallon. The Tesla costs too much, but the price of electric is stable and not subject to the whims of opec.

    for all the conservative chatter here; you fellas sure like bowin to the Saudis

    why do you think opec lowered fuel so much?

    It is because of electric cars. But you can pretend otherwise of it makes you feel better.
     
  4. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,106
    Likes: 961, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    Has anyone ever done a cost comparison for solar/electric vs gas or diesel boats?

    The range is certainly an issue as well as an open skiff or any areas of a boat not able to be covered with panels.

    Perhaps if we accept 25% range; we can cost compare?
     
  5. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 844
    Likes: 26, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    I thought she fell out buggy n horse ran her over. If you restrict speed limit to 20 mph we will save a ton more lives.
    Earth is awash w excessive amounts of oil, old decrepit wells after a few years renew and begin producing. Fossils creating fuels is a lie, Russians went to deepest hole ever-7.9 miles, we know very little of what's below surface and what actually creates oil
     
  6. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,106
    Likes: 961, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    no...it was pre safety latches...there was a reason the industry moved to safety door latches...people fell out of the cars; she might have hit her head; even my dad was just a child then; all I know is she died

    surely you jest; noone is going back to 20mph; how do you think the airbag became relevant
     
  7. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 844
    Likes: 26, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    That's fine if someone chooses to wear or have safety belts installed its their body their choice
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  8. missinginaction
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 1,055
    Likes: 225, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 512
    Location: New York

    missinginaction Senior Member

    I don't know how much hull drag there is but the prop drag did occur to me. When running on the kicker the main engine propeller actually spins slowly as it moves through the water. I remember calling Walter Gear and asking them whether this would hurt the gearbox and they said "Don't worry about it." I'm not an expert but since the prop actually spins there must not be nearly as much drag as there would be if it were locked.

    When I did this installation years ago I wasn't really thinking about fuel. The kicker has an autopilot attached to it. I can run the kicker alone or in tandem with the main engine. Either way the autopilot will take care of the steering all day. I always take trips alone and that autopilot makes the time so much more enjoyable.

    Have a great day!

    MIA
     
  9. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 844
    Likes: 26, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    MIA, I would think even w prop turning that is significant drag and straight submerged stern rather than clean sweep is causing a great amount of turbulence

    Autopilot is used only on open waters, right?

    There is friend who has 28 marinette w single 225 chrysler getting right around 3mpg, wonder how it would perform w OB. They r aluminum hulled and welding a 4' extension for a clean water flow w OB inside would turn it 2 a full displacement boat.

    I would guess it weighs 3ton n appro. 25 LWL, so as sharpil formulates getting to 1.3sl (7.48mph) would require 5hp per ton x 3ton = 15hp or 1.0sl (5.75mph) requiring 2hp per ton x 3ton = 6hp and as you say in calm waters. Seems 8mpg is possible w a 15hp OB w enough reserve power for rougher conditions if traveling at displacement speeds
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  10. Will Gilmore
    Joined: Aug 2017
    Posts: 562
    Likes: 244, Points: 43
    Location: Littleton, nh

    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    Range is an issue for short range comparison. For longer ranges, such as crossing an ocean, which would make it? A solar/wind charged battery electric or a 300 gal. Diesel?

    -Will (Dragonfly)
     
  11. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 844
    Likes: 26, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    There are boats that get 10mpg+. NorthAmerica 2 Europe w 300g diesel can and has been done. Thomas Jones was getting 10mpg w some old forgotten engine in his 60+' gas powered boat "Alissa" on the race to Bermuda, again over 100 years ago.

    Think an emergency get home sail is necessary 4 such a voyage. Steve Dashew has a very low aspect jury sail he stores on 83' windhorse that gets 100miles a day, quite respectable, 27-32' oceangoing sailboats average that amount, the smaller boats saving grace is that they at least harness free energy (wind least expensive of all). Typical sails cost same or less than engines/motors. There should b a thread 4 assembling cost effective rigs

    Brent Swain had success from used sails, ofcourse less than optimal performance but still decent. Many like to castigate macgregors as improper boats but Roger went ahead n created the fastest production sailboat ever due to its 6/1 L/B design n dare I say very sound build as he was only fiberglass production builder of that time having ABS engineer document n approve the process as meeting their standards. The Mac leaves in its wake any other boat of same era - same displacement (and most modern builds) even w old sloppy sails.

    Just as in old days cars were more efficient so were the boats, designed to be long, low, w small engines. As artificially high prices arrive, silly riders accepting dictates will b forced onto buses/trains and gas guzzling boaters will abandon their hobby which will free up dock space 4 efficient boats same w efficient cars.

    Just shows however hard the fascists try to take away fun, the wise will find ways around and prosper.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
    hoytedow likes this.
  12. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
    Posts: 325
    Likes: 66, Points: 28
    Location: Michigan

    KeithO Senior Member

    I would agree that cars today, generally are safer than ever before. Crash safety is not that easy to design for, once you get beyond mandatory seat belts and collapsible steering column, both of which are fairly obvious. Now that we have more computing power than ever before, it is possible to design the appropriate weak points for panels to fold and absorb energy while at the same time keeping enough strong elements to limit intrusion into the passenger zone of a car. Definitely still some of the hardest work car makers have to do with a new vehicle.

    The fact is that car makers are greedy. The bigger and heavier the vehicle, the more it will sell for and the more profitable it is for them. That is why car makers in NA have resisted selling compact cars forever and stop production as soon as sales of SUVs and trucks pick back up. Also we are denied the small diesels because the US emission regulations have historically been tougher than Europe and for most manufacturers a step too far. After the VW cheating scandal, that was pretty much the coffin nail for ever getting small diesels back in the US. The Japanese have learned from the US automakers and no longer offer much in the way of compact cars either. Even the Toyota trucks have gotten bigger and bigger with every generation till there is no point in buying one anymore.

    I was on a waiting list for the Smart when it was released in the US with a paid deposit for a year. First year volume was limited to 17k ? Why ? Second year I cancelled. Then paid a $500 deposit on a Jetta Tdi. On a waiting list again for 9 months. The only reason I ever got it was because the US went into the financial crisis and thousands of people cancelled. A dealership in Ft Wayne called me and asked me if I was still waiting and that they had one... So quite frankly all the stories about Americans not wanting to buy economical cars is BS. Most of the time there is absolutely nothing on offer and many of us do not want a hybrid and additionally we think that the styling of the Prius is a joke. Even Kia and other Korean manufacturers don't sell truly compact cars anymore.

    I remember with the Jetta I did a trip from SE Michigan to Key West FLA and back for $280 in diesel fuel. At ~45mpg the Jetta was not nearly as fuel efficient as earlier Tdi models, but still a lot better than any of the other options available in the US. Like is usually done, one could only get the diesel together with a bunch of other "premium" packages so the car was $28k, but today that is cheap compared to what a Chevrolet Malibu costs with a complicated and unreliable 4 cylinder gas turbo motor. Not nearly comparable fuel economy or range either. When I lived in Germany for 3 years, 2000-2003, I owned a VW Lupo. It had a 1.4L tdi 3 cylinder engine. 75hp, could do 110mph on the Autobahn no problem. Got close to 60mpg, a 32L fuel tank gave a range of over 500 miles. I bought it brand new for 10500 Euro at the end of 2000. Had I not moved to the US I would have driven that thing till the wheels fell off...
     
    Will Gilmore likes this.
  13. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 5,106
    Likes: 961, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    oh good grief Charlie Brown...this is not the place for your edgy political trash...stick to boats please
     
  14. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
    Posts: 325
    Likes: 66, Points: 28
    Location: Michigan

    KeithO Senior Member


  15. wet feet
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 742
    Likes: 134, Points: 43, Legacy Rep: 124
    Location: East Anglia,England

    wet feet Senior Member

    The most useful metric for comparing fuel efficiency is the number of grams of fuel per Kilowattt hour.Its often difficult to find the numbers but it does give a basis for comparison.Having the information is just a part of the collection of factors to consider.You may need to take into account other factors such as good local service.The brutal truth is that IC engines aren't particularly efficient.The monster 2 strokes in huge ships just beat 45% thermal efficiency.Car engines struggle to get to 35% and electric motors are now at 99%.

    To blindly write off any as unsuitable would be unwise.There are places in Europe where you would be paying close to $8/gallon.That sort of thing focuses your mind a bit.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.