Suggestions for a boat to replace a ageing fleet.

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Stumble, Dec 2, 2010.

  1. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,896
    Likes: 71, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 739
    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    I am currently exploring the possibility of replacing a fleet of about 150 Flying Scotts with a more modern, faster, more fun, day sailer.

    Requirements:
    3-4 people
    Existing one design class
    Possibility of planing downwind in ~10kn (upwind planing a bonus)
    Easily trailerable by a class 3 hitch and a small truck (towed weight of under 2000lbs)
    Single point lifting point for crane launching
    If there is a keel it must lift for low trailering height
    Price point of no more than $25,000 (F.O.B. the Port of New Orleans)
    Draft of <6 ft
    Width of <8'6"
    Monohull
    Spinnaker for downwind sailing
    Asymetrical prefered but not required
    Builder able to deliver boats in sufficiant quantity (An initial order of 30 boats with approximatly 10 a year continuing)
    Proven durability of the hull to racing (i.e. no oil canning after 3 years)
    A minimum number of 'tweaky' control lines
    Easy to sail for a beginner but interesting enough for an experienced racer.

    A manufacturer that is willing to offer a fleet discount to associates of the primary fleet would be prefered.




    Feel free to contact me in this thread, or by PM.
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,664
    Likes: 334, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Last time I raced in New Orleans was in a Fish class-just missed the Scotts.
    I remember thinking at the time-why not a Lightning? Haven't checked costs
    but it would be perfect for three people and a great trainer.
     
  3. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    CL16 from CL Boatworks in Erie, Ontario (just on the border with Buffalo, New York.

    The CL16 fits your brief like a glove, and the CL16 is basically a Wayfarer Class dinghy (they sail together as one class). It sure isn't going to plane upwind unless dragged by a ski boat though.

    I'd hesitate to replace your Flying Scots with anything from an even older heavy design (Lightning). These boats can't be dry sailed from a dinghy by sailing school students using dollys and ramps.

    Performance is always going to be an issue at this level. There is no way a 2-4 person dinghy is going to plane upwind in a sailing school configuration. Upwind planing basically demands a weight/performance mix that means instability and low durability. High durability at low weight basically means advanced composites and very high prices.

    Melges makes perfect boats for your brief - but prices isn't going to fit. The Nomad from Laser Performance fits price and durability, but performance isn't going to be spectacular.

    --
    CutOnce
     
  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,664
    Likes: 334, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    For a trully modern, fast boat you might consider the Viper-base price exactly at your range and a multiple boat order is likely to bring that down.
    Base cost $25,000/race ready $32,000 without any negotiation.

    Length Overall 21' 1"

    Beam 8' 2"
    Weight- 340 kilo 749lbs
    Ballast Lifting Bulb Keel. 123 kilo 271lbs (including 220 lb bulb)
    Draft 4' 6" with keel down. 1' 10' with keel up. (keel is bolted down while sailing per class rules)
    Sail Area Main/Jib 252 sq ft

    Spinnaker 425 sq ft

    Mast Carbon
    Handicap PHRF 111 US Sailing Portsmouth Yardstick 70.4
    Designer Brian Bennett, Kiwi Yacht Design
    Builder Rondar Race Boats

    click on image:
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,896
    Likes: 71, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 739
    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    I have already been in contact with the Viper distributor, and while I am impressed with the boat, would like to explore more options.

    We passed on the Lightning for a number of reasons. It is a pretty old design with a lot of tweaky controls. The boats are heavy for their size compared to modern boats, and te goal is to get something new and exciting, not a comperably aged boat. Though personally I happen to love them.

    The Melges is also on the table, but they really love their boats, and the 20 so far seems to have pretty mixed reviews.

    Thanks for the tip on the CL16. I'll take a look at it.
     
  6. Eric Sponberg
    Joined: Dec 2001
    Posts: 2,004
    Likes: 209, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2917
    Location: On board Corroboree

    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    Stumble,

    Would you consider the Scandinavian Cruiser 20? This is a brand new design launched this year that meets virtually every item in your list of requirements. You can see the boat at their website: http://www.scandinaviancruisers.com/. They are very interested in building fleets of boats for groups such as yours. You can also see more design information on my website at http://sponbergyachtdesign.com/SC20-SD18.htm.

    For more information on pricing and availability, you can contact the president of Scandinavian Cruisers, Mr. Nis Peter Lorentzen, through his Contact Us pages on the SC website. If you would like to discuss the design in more detail, you may contact me privately.

    Eric
     
  7. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,896
    Likes: 71, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 739
    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    Eric,

    I looked at the info on the SC20, and while it looks like an impressive boat one of the criteria we have is for 3 sailors and the ability to squeeze a coach or teacher on board for lessons. I am not sure there is enough room for than many people. I am also concerned about such a large investment being made in a boat with no existing OD class, and because of the harness the difficulty getting a PHRF certificate for handicap racing.

    That being said I am adding it to our list of potentials, though it at the moment doesn't look like a front runner.
     
  8. Scandinavian
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Beijing

    Scandinavian New Member

    Dear "Stumble"

    It is amazing to read that your area has a fleet of 150 Flying Scott's. I think that is a huge asset that should not be under-estimated. Very few keelboat classes can gather such a large fleet in one area. Even though the Flying Scott is an old design, and not a performance boat, the size of the fleet makes it interesting, even for very experienced sailors.

    It is very hard for any other one-design classes to compete with such a large "installed base", and it may never be possible to replace the fleet, and you run the risk of alienating many sailors in the process, either because they will miss the large fleet, or not like the style and higher cost of the new performance boat that you introduce.

    You may actually be better off to support the continued growth of the Flying Scott's fleet, by restoring old tired boats, or donating old boats to young sailors with little cash, etc. A fleet of your size can easily collect funds to purchase and "re-cycle" old unused boats.

    When it comes to offering alternative one-design boats for your area, I suggest you considering the following:

    a) Any new boat(s) should offer the latest sailing technology, and be radically different from the Flying Scott.

    b) Accepting the the Flying Scott will remain a mainstay class in your area, you can afford to introduce more than one new class, as new classes will appeal to different sub-segments of your sailing population.

    I have also noticed your $25K budget, which eliminates a lot of the smaller high-tech sports-boats, including Melges 20, Shaw 650, Longtze Premier and Karver 650.

    However, even within your $25K budget you may want to considering the following options:

    1) Latest high-tech performance boats: Open 5.7, Open 5.0, Thomson T590, Viper 640, Laser SB3

    2) Modern Classic: Scandinavian Cruiser 20. While I am obviously biased, our boat appeals to those sailors who truly appreciate beautiful classical lines, but also want speed and the latest technology. This is a smaller group, but I think you can offer a few different boats to different segments.

    I hope these comments are helpful. Good luck with your exciting challenge.

    Best regards

    Nis

    Nis Peter Lorentzen
    Founder
    Scandinavian Cruisers

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    5176594290_748698d3c2_o by nispeterlorentzen, on Flickr
     
  9. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,896
    Likes: 71, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 739
    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    Scandinavian,

    I appreciate your thoughts, and time.

    Right now we are basically stuck with the Flying Scott. It isn't so much that we have a strong OD fleet of them, but that due to instatutional inertia we just keep buying them. That being said, no one races them outside of a few intra-club events, Liptons, and a few Old timer regattas. They only get sailed a few more times a year for training and classes, but that is it.

    The racers in the area have universally abandoned them as being too slow, too problematic, and not exciting enough, and given the price of a new or even good used boat most of the private dollars have been going into J-22's J-24 ect... So basically what we have is a dog of a boat that Yacht Clubs keep buying because other Yacht Clubs have them, even though no one really wants to sail them, or at least anymore than they have to to compete in Liptons. In fact to the best of my knowledge there is not even an active OD Flying Scott class in the area, and I don't know of a single boat that is in the hands of a private owner.

    This is why we are trying to look for alternative boats. There is no interest in continuing to spend 20K a boat on something that no one really wants to sail.


    I for the most part agree with your suggestions about what to look for in a boat, with a few caviats:

    1) While a very highly advanced boat would be great for the racing crews, these boats must also be forgiving enough that they can be used for the numerous training programs that the clubs now use the flying scott for. So everything from sailing daycamp during the summer to adult sailing classes. This requires a move away from the realy fast boats like a 49er, or Moth. Both because of the need for stability and so we can squeese 4 people on board.

    2) As above, the Flying Scott is really not aboat anyone wants to sail, it is just the boat that everyone has to sail. The racers because it is the OD boat for Liptons and the like, and the new sailors because they get told whats available.


    I do appreciate the options you suggested, and thank you for them. While I still plan on keeping the SC20 on the list as a potential canidate, honestly like I mentioned a few posts ago, its inability to carry a 3rd person, let alone a 4th is an issue. As well as the requirement for trapeses which makes it difficult to sail in PHRF. Though otherwise I will say it is a beautiful boat with what looks like a wonderful future.
     
  10. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 79, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Do the RSK6 fit your criteria? It may be too tweaky and lack space- it's more like a modern baby Etchells. What about the Olympic Elliott 6? Too expensive? I know some people aren't all that thrilled about it in some ways, but it was designed for programmes like yours.

    It's probably too small for you, but as a left-field idea there's the International Flying Fifteen. It's a bit like a low-aspect Scandinavian Cruiser 20 (similar LOA, LWL, displacement, ballast and SA but less draft and a lower-aspect rig) but with perhaps the biggest international fleet in the world among dayboat/keelboat types - 0ver 3,500 boats. The last worlds we had here (Australia) had something like 120 boats.

    Like the SC20, it's a bit tight for space, but with its 8" of extra beam they can take three people; in fact in Western Australia years ago they were regularly raced three-up. There's a slightly more modern rig in development at the moment. Very easy to handle ashore, more fun than an Etchells to sail in the opinions of some of us who have tried both.

    [​IMG]

    http://web.me.com/rjlondon/ffdatchet/Photos.html#3

    Ironically, it has a shared bloodline with the Scot, because Sandy Douglass was a great fan of the FF's designer Uffa Fox; in fact the FF and Thistle were both derivations of Uffa's International 14 shape.

    But the FF is very different from what you want in some ways.
     
  11. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,896
    Likes: 71, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 739
    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    Ct,

    The RSK6 is really a younger brother, slightly smaller version of the Viper640. A nice little boat, but just marginally cheaper (around $3,000), but designed for 2 people. I couldn't see the justification for us to look at it instead of the Viper ause of this.

    The IFF is really a boat in the same class as the Flying Scott, designed in 1946 while for its day it was a great boat, it is a little long in the tooth to be compared with modern boats in the same price range.
     
  12. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 79, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Whoops, I was getting the RS Elite and RS K6 mixed up, and the Elite is out of your price range. I also forgot that the Elliott 6 (which is a bit out of your price range) doesn't have a lifting keel.

    I've never sailed a FS, but my understanding is that it's much, much less lively than the FF. People who sail J/24s happily will often find the FF a bundle of fun. But as we both know, the FF doesn't fit all of your criteria - it's just that it arguably fits them at least as well as the SC20 and CL16 which you put on the list.

    It sometimes seems that it's very, very hard to make a significant improvement over many old boats, without accepting significant drawbacks in other areas (expense, difficulty of handling, durability). From some angles, that seems perfectly reasonable - the wind and water haven't changed, and if you want something cheap and simple that can take abuse, then you're not going to be able to take advantages of the modern construction that is the basis of most performance improvement.

    Not to mention that much of the speed increase in modern boats just comes from the fact that they are physically larger and therefore more expensive than older boats of the same LOA!
     
  13. Scandinavian
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Beijing

    Scandinavian New Member

    Dear "Stumble"

    Just a minor correction. The Scandinavian Cruiser 20 does not require a trapeze - it is just available because it is a lot of fun and good exercise for sailors of any age and ability, and it helps you to plane on a close reach.

    Several yacht clubs have been buying Ideal 18's. They meet many of your requirements, but they do not plane, and they are also "long in the tooth" as you call it.

    I think that you must look for the latest sailing technology as a replacement. The sailing experience must be exciting to attract young and new sailors, which is the lifeblood of our sport, and to re-energize existing members.

    A boat with an asymmetrical spinnaker is very important because jibing a conventional spinnaker in a strong breeze causes more accidents than any other maneuver on a boat, and this is what scares away potential new sailors more than anything else.

    Considering your latest comments, maybe you need to raise the budget ceiling and go for a Melges 20 or a J80, or go for the Open 5.0/5.7 as they are fast and very wide with lots of cockpit space.

    Best regards

    Nis

    Nis Peter Lorentzen
    Founder
    Scandinavian Cruisers

    [​IMG][/url]
     
  14. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 79, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Re "I think that you must look for the latest sailing technology as a replacement. The sailing experience must be exciting to attract young and new sailors, which is the lifeblood of our sport, and to re-energize existing members."

    Actually, in some major sailing areas it's the slower, cheaper boats that are attracting the new and young sailors, and the faster high-tech ones that are fading. It was the same in the past in sailing, but people like Sandy Douglass realised that fast boats like International 14s weren't going to attract the mass market so they went to accessible, low tech (in some respects) slow boats like the Flying Scot, and the whole sport took off.

    Looking at the boats that are truly successful in the dinghy market, it seems that most of the same principles still apply.
     

  15. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,664
    Likes: 334, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ======================
    So Ct, do you think it is a mistake to encourage kids and others to sail newer, more exciting boats?
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.