strip planking vs aging

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by urisvan, Nov 30, 2009.

  1. urisvan
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    Location: istanbul

    urisvan Senior Member

    hello,
    please look at this link.
    http://www.gartsideboats.com/faq2.php
    he doesn't like strip planking. Shortly he says that you can't prevent the wood shriking and expanding, even it is thin strip planked and covered with epoxy.

    cheers
     
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  2. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Some O-Jolle built strip planked (It seams it is the German who invented the strip plank) just before the war, in a classical fashion, just edge nailed, still sailing with the hull varnished.
    I think the more simplier the strip plank is the better. Providing of course you have close space framing. The frames will be spaced twice the space of a normal carvel construction. This is my personal opinion about the spacing, not every body agree.
    Between the strip, a thick varnish can be used or a type of Bostik 920 but it not mendatory. If you are in hot climat yes a good urethane sealand will be recommended.
    I don't like the epoxy sheathing. It is not necessary. A normal glue will do, and good ring nails in bronze or galvanized (double dipped hot)
    For large boat in set of the sheathing I will prefer two oposite diagonal heavy planking veeners on top of the strip glued, and then the last veener longitudinal also glued. I like to have the last diagonal veneer screwed all the way and into the frame. the planking longitudinal veener cover the head of the screws, and will be thourougly glued. It is better to have the longitudinal planking veneer not too wide.
    A nice varnish will do.
    But this is my two cents
    Cheers
    Daniel
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  3. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    As he says "Kilndried wood". That's the fault.. 5 years airdrying should do for softwoods. Hardwoods some more..
     
  4. Herman
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    Herman Senior Member

    So that is an advantage: Simple and little framing required.

    So do all strip planked boats suffer from broken frames and pushed up decks?

    About the aestetic part, in a different part of his website he writes this abou t cold molded boats:

    "The lack of framing and the flawless finish tend to give cold molded boats a too perfect, 'plastic' finish that often makes them indistinguishable from glass hulls."

    So when a boat has a nice finish, it is not good, and when it has a more "robust" finish, it is not good either?

    This is about those nice Canadian Canoes, I guess. Where the top strips are usually a contrasting wood colour. Some like them, some don't. He does.

    Bad installation of hardware is not only a problem for strip planked boats, but also for his beloved carvel or clinker built boats, or any wooden boat, or balsa cored boat. When installing hardware, on a cored or wooden boat, it is very important to decently seal the edges, or for higher loaded fittings, make a transfer to single skin. One of my clients uses epoxy pipes to lead the through-hull fittings of cooling water etc above the waterline, and only then install a stopcock. This way the stopcock can be changed or serviced without taking the boat out.
    About ABS not recognising wood as a structural material under the waterline: Luckily they did not determine scantlings on older minesweepers...

    I have no idea of the situation in the USA, but at least in Holland the glass fabrics are applied inside and out, and before final framing goes in. Principles of cored construction, I guess.

    This is a matter of engineering. Both of the keelson construction, and the laminate. However, many, primarily older, desingers have a tendency to say "the builder will figure it out" and seemingly today they will not...
    Sheathing under the keel is highly dependant on boat design, but if a boat has a "groundable" keel, make sure it is protected well. Whether when traditional built, strip planked, or cold molded, or even polyester or steel. This problem is not specific for strip planked boats.

    About these test panels: Please do make them, and show us.

    Very much true. But also true on cold molded boats. No strip-plank bashing here.

    The fact that you feel a "naked" strip planked boat is ugly, is not a strong case for convincing other people not to do it. I think the Volkswagen Beetle is ugly. 25 million people clearly have another opinion...

    My personal conclusion can be that all building methods have their advantages and drawbacks, and little quirks that need to be explored and discovered by the builder, perferably before building begins.

    My personal opinion is that price of good quality red ceder, which is considered ideal for strip planking, is so expensive now (at least here) that I personally would opt for foam planking. But I cannot condemn others for not sharing that opinion.
     
  5. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Herman, do you own a Bugatti? Which model?
    Urisvan you should talk seriously with Richard Apex1, he knows a lot and can guide you better than anybody else.
    Cheers
    Daniel
     
  6. Herman
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    Herman Senior Member

    I have 2 Bugatti replicas of the "Bugatti Baby" also falsely called "Bugatti type 52" but no large car.

    Do have a website, though: http://www.bugattibuilder.com
     
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  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Strip planking has been around for at least 200 years, that I know of, likely longer. These are all traditional, what was once referred to as "narrow planked" or "set planked". These were edge fastened with and without something in the seams, which was usually shellac, lead or thick varnish. These boats held up well and still do to this day.

    I'm not sure what Paul's biases are really based in, which are clearly displayed in his "preferred" building methods, but making blanket statements such as he, on strip planked hulls is frankly lacking fore sight and understanding of the method(s).

    First of all there are at least a dozen different types of strip planking. Do all of them suck or only the ones he has issues with? Are all of them capable of producing too perfect of finishes or can some of them be considered poorly build and faired enough to qualify for his ideas of wooden boat perfection.

    I guess we shouldn't have glued lapstrake boats either, because they are so difficult to repair too. Please . . .

    What an arrogant, ill informed *** . . .
     
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  8. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    PAR I have to agree with you. I read the Pauls' articles on strip planks long ago and I had the same reation as you. But you are more courageous than me! Yes it is an arrogant, ill informed ***.....................:p
    Thank you PAR
    Cheers
    Daniel
     
  9. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Look just because some may have written books, get lots of column inches in the press and have seen some success, doesn't mean they are right. It just means they managed to tickle the proper butts to get some attention.

    I do lot of lapstrake repair. Everyone says it's hard to do and it was the first few times I did, but once you get a handle on it, the work isn't that hard.

    I think repairing cold molded is far more difficult then strip planking, so maybe we shouldn't build out of this method either. Cold molded hulls can be flawlessly finished (I have one) too, so people might think it's a plastic boat and the method should be banned.

    Come on folks, don't buy into pissed off, ill informed, well covered in the press, old men, that are too set in their ways to adjust to or accept change in their lives or ideals. It's a fact of life. Change is the most essential element of all existence. Without change, the dinosaurs would still be here . . . Apparently, the well regarded Mr. Gartside is one of them.
     
  10. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    A well written reply and I agree whole heartedly Herman

    An Alternative to Western Red Cedar is KIRI.
    Well worth a look and lighter than WRC as well
     
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    But not as strong sabah!

    Though it is a phantastic material, it cannot replace WRC in every application.

    Regards
    Richard
     
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  12. urisvan
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    urisvan Senior Member

    If Paul is right, strip planked boats should suffer from broken frames and pushed up decks frequently. Is it common?

    And what do you think about mahogany for strip planking?

    cheers
    Ulas
     
  13. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Using soft mahogany like okume is good but can be expensive, and the scantling should be raised by 10%. The fisnish can be realy nice if varnished.
    Here we use atlantic cedar, it's very good and not expensive.
    The only downside of strip plank against carvel will be you can allow knots, what ever they are. The strip are too small in section to have knots.
    I never had a boat with broken frames because pushed against a deck. If the boat is a commercial boat, double sawn the frames and you can push the deck until it goes to the middle of the town. :p
    If its a yacht, steam bent will stand hurrican force. As long the frames are close spaced and the structure well designed. The majors bulkead are not enough.

    Cheers
    Daniel
     
  14. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Urisvan,whether mahogany is suitable for strip planking or not depends on the strip planking method,if it is a traditional edge glued and nailed over conventional framing and epoxy /glass sheathed on a heavier design then yes,we built a 64ft Lidgard design this way 30yrs ago although im somewhat distressed to find out according to the great Paul its probably sitting around with broken frames by now.However,if you are building a strip planked composite boat it is way heavier than you need unless of course you are building a heavy displacement boat by this method.
    Apex,that kiri is "not as strong"as wrc is somewhat irrelevant in the type of construction that Sabbah uses, its a core and as such it is "stronger" than the common ones such as balsa or foam,maybe wrc is "stronger" but then mahogany is stronger than wrc but innapropriate for this form of construction."Strong" is a term i see used often when comparing different boatbuilding methods and materials and is fairly meaningless,what you need is "strong enough" kiri is strong enough for this method. Im not sure what application you would use wrc for other than the core..
    Steve.
     
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  15. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Steve W has it about right, there are so many different types of strip planking, we need to be talking apples to apples. Comparing a conventional edge nailed stripped hull over steamed frames isn't using the same engineering principles as one build with a cheap, light weight strip core that has heavy sheaths on both sides and no internal frames.

    In most cases currently, people are using strip planking as a cored build (sandwich or composite), not a "narrow plank" build. In this regard, you can use pretty much anything you want for the strips, foam, cheap wood, cardboard, mashed potatoes, etc., so long as the peel and compression strengths meet minimum requirements at keeping the two skins in proper orientation to each other.

    Okay, maybe mashed potatoes wouldn't have the compressive qualities necessary for the job, but if my aunt Rita's recipe was used, they'd easily have the peel strength when dry.
     
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