Stick vs Wire for Welding Hull Plates?

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by stonedpirate, Apr 11, 2015.

  1. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Maybe twice as guilty, sell then buy.....

    Junior welding anecdote from this arvo... Youngest Son(13) is assisting set up on some steel horses some 75 x 50 x 3 RHS as a building strongback(becomes the trailer later....) for a Trover dinghy that's distracting us from more boring stuff in the holidays.... my 94 year old Grandparents drop in & Grandma Nancy trips up on some $hitty supercheap auto car ramps...... bit of first aid to a nasty ankle gouge, cuppa tea & bickies, chat.... get back to work with pop grabbing a couple of frangipani cuttings as they go.... "they'll look nice in a few years........ I might die before then;)!"..... youngest sets up with the mig snake for the first time, starts a bit shaky but after about an hour is pad welding practice beads left & right with consistant travel & looking quite nice, bit of modern art glued out of offcuts created too, at the end wind up the dials for a couple of power runs..... finishes the afternoon fun for pack up, looking over the granny tripping ramps.... geez these welds aren't too flash, what else is wrong with 'em son, these sharp corners need rounding... I'll do that tomorrow... Proud for him but not for me- I "coulda" done that years ago...

    Jeff.
     
  2. stonedpirate
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    stonedpirate Senior Member

    lol

    What is it with you and my budget? This is the second pretentious, elitist ****** thing you have said to me regarding my project. I have potentially an unlimited budget but it comes down to how much you really want to invest on a boat of this type. It is a fun little hobby boat that may or may not be fun to use.

    Arrogant much?

    I bought a chinese made oscilloscope after much research and it performs better than ones that cost 10x as much. Still works great years later.

    I do my research and get good stuff. People who pay more just like to pay retail markup for labels and that is up to them.

    Will it work as good as a $5000 industrial welder designed for heavy daily use? Nope, but it doesnt have to either. $450 is at the higher end of hobbyist stick welders. Could have bout the $90 bunnings welder or the $150 cigweld from supercheap auto.

    I will by a Bukh motor if i want one, i just dont..
     
  3. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Might be worth brushing up on your reading comprehension skills at the same time as your welding skills.

    I can't be bothered arguing with you or feeding you teaspoons of information so you can take it in. Good luck to you, you remind me of an ex-poster named tugboat. He knew everything too and only posted here so everyone could agree with his wisdom.

    Meanwhile I have a boat to finish building, in a workshop that I built, on my waterfront land with the house that I also built. I have very few new tools but what I have are of serviceable quality.

    I think you can join myark in my ignore list. Bye.

    PDW
     
  4. yofish

    yofish Previous Member

    Here we have another stoned thread that's revealing the nature of the beast.
     
  5. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Hi PDW,
    Wow.................... Short fuse there, isn't this forum about sharing information, apparently plenty lurkers pick up useful stuff without asking their own questions- plenty people want a welding machine.....,
    & no need to rack up your annoyances in a public fashion, much cooler to just hit the button & say nothing..... kinda euphemistically like spittin in the eye, lucky pirates wear a patch..... glad you wished him luck.

    Regards from Jeff.
     
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  6. myark
    Joined: Oct 2012
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    myark Senior Member

    I made 40 large electrical storage cabinets' from 3mm plate for barges that took equipment to a LNG gas project on barrow island Australia .

    I used 2.5 welding rods and came out a lot better quality than Mig, especially the corner welds, although I am certified Cobey ASME 9 6G pipe welder where the the root runs are done with stick instead of tig.

    If you can tune in the welding skills then a $100 stick welding machine using 2.5 welding rods would be fine, if its not tensile plate then mild steel welding rods are very easy use.

    I have a powerful stick welder I purchased new in China that cost $50 and is the size of a small battery and very reliable.
     
  7. stonedpirate
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    stonedpirate Senior Member

    Sweet, thanks Myark

    Well said Waikikan

    pdw lol no comment
     
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  8. essenmein
    Joined: Dec 2014
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    essenmein Junior Member

    I'll throw in my 2c, I would go with a wirefeeder no question.

    Even my little 110V lincoln on max voltage with flux core will easily weld 1/8th (3.175mm) in a single pass. If welding a big hull you might want something bigger as its only a 30% duty hobby machine.

    Even with something like that, mine cost 250 used, you can learn to weld, the process is basically the same on the little welder or a big welder. And its not like it can't weld bigger stuff, just not in one pass... just built a new bumper for my truck out of 1/4" (6.5mm), and 3 passes with a few breaks to let the welder cool did get a bit old.

    Then my theory is, use it till it really can't manage any more (or dies), then spend on a proper machine.
     
  9. Liquidmetal
    Joined: Mar 2017
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    Liquidmetal New Member

    To the OP...

    To add to what has been said above.......

    Im afraid that when it comes to Mig welders, unlike when looking at MMA/Tig welders, you really do get what you pay for.
    The difference in quality between a chinese made Thermal Arc/Everlast etc etc welder, and a European made Kemmpi/Fronius/Lorch machine truly is vast. Internal parts, voltage control and wire feed steadiness quality, therefore end result quality. Huge difference.

    Before you think otherwise, without being rude, I do know exactly wat i am talking about, I have been a professional welder for 20yrs, coded to weld high pressure pipework and pressure vessels in carbon steel, stainless steels, duplex and super duplex, and aluminium. Also primary structural steelwork and plenty of other bits over the years, Using MMAW, GMAW, GTAW, FCAW (gas and selfshielded)

    As far as the shielding gas is concerned though, somebody in a previous post suggested to use staright CO2?? This is fine if your not concerned about the end result, but if you are, then if hat you're going to be welding is 3-4mm steel plate, then argoshield (Argon mixed with Co2) with 5-10% Co2 is a far better option to go with. Much more stable arc, much smooth weld, and due to the smoothness, much more consistant penetration.

    If you team this up with a welder capable of 400amps, then any thicker than 6mm plate, with a minimum of 27v voltage setting and around 9.5-10m/min wire feed speed, you will get a very smooth spray transfer arc which you should be using for platework of those sort of thicknesses.

    But overall, I dont mean to be rude, but if you are thinking of doing the welding yourself on a steel vessel that is going to be carrying anybody/anything on water, and you need to ask the question "which is better stick or mig", then asking questions about sheilding gases, saying your having issues with settings for voltage and wire speeds etc etc when just welding bits of scrap on a bench, how on earth are you goint to weld the verticals/overheads on the outer surfaces of the hull?!?!? And finally thinking somebody is having a pop at you because they say that youre not going to get a very good end result with a made in china cheap and cheerful welder....................

    You really should not have been going anywhere near the project with a welding torch in your hand, as it is clear you have no idea what you are doing and therefore are putting peoples lives at risk!!!! And this is the sort of thing giving time served tradesmen a bad rap when it does go wrong.

    I sure hope you did everybody favour and by all means do all of the plating and fit up work yourself, but employ an experienced welder to weld it all out!!!
     
  10. myark
    Joined: Oct 2012
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    myark Senior Member


    I would not be turned of by the last comments as it sounds like a sales man trying sell welder and other services.
    I have purchased a caddy welder stick and tig from China to weld heavy wall stainless steel in ASME 9 6G on a LNG gas project.
    I first used a Miller but it is to complicated and always had problems with the computer settings that easily faulty, but the Chinese welder actually had a smother arc and never let me down at any time and had heaps of grunt.
    I brought a similar welder recently while n China to weld gr5 titanium and was just as good that cost with leads, gauges and spare parts $100 USD.

    Arc welding the boat project for a beginner welder is the best as its very easy to learn if you have a friend that can weld to show you the ABC, I have taught people to weld a reasonable down hand in a day.

    There are welding schools that teach basic arc welding in a very short time if can not find a friend that can Arc weld

    A vertical Arc welding is easy, as its a simple side to side motion and over head is also simple if use bead runs like the down hands do.

    With a Mig, especially aluminum you need to get setting right such as wire speed to match heat settings and is better to use Arc welding which has a simple setting that is high and low heat that can be practiced on a scrap bit of steel to get correct.
    Pictures attached are my trusty Chinese welder that never let me down which is valued 10 X less than a Miller, The Chinese welder was much more reliable and very easy to use with a smother arc in fact towards the end of the LNG gas project I was chosen to do what they called the Golden welds which was to repair all the failed x-ray welds that could no longer be hydro tested but only 100% x-rayed.
    Another picture attached I took in China of Arc welder, most arc welders weld blind with no welding helmet is how easy basic Arc welding is.
     

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  11. mikeny
    Joined: May 2013
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    mikeny Junior Member

    30 years as a boilermaker and having completed 38 foot metal boat welding anyway as klingel writes in his book a production welder could ruin a perfectly good boat building a boat as an art form not to be rushed stick welding seems to be out of fashion but it really does work it's simple equipment is cheap always works and quite adequate to build a boat carefully fitting up the boat welding small amounts minimizes metal distortion for more time so you're not relying on a wire feed to fill up the gaps
     
  12. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Myark: I don't think there exists any welder the size of a small battery that can run 2.5mm rods.
    There is a limitation to the size of transformers.
     
  13. myark
    Joined: Oct 2012
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    myark Senior Member

    Oh my god :confused:
     
  14. mikeny
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    mikeny Junior Member

    I hope I did not confuse you to minimize your cost you could buy a small stick machine maybe $200 if you decide later you want to wire feed you can always sell the stick machine or have both Welding is a really small part of the overall construction of a steel boat
     

  15. myark
    Joined: Oct 2012
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    myark Senior Member

    I purchased this new welder a few weeks ago for $180 USD https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/arc-welding/welders/boc-smootharc-mma-130-welder
    Excellent welds and very light to carry
     

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