Steel yacht construction

Itemising the prices of a homebuilt boat is a waste of time. What it costs is what you have. How can you predict what kind of deal you are going to get for used equipment in advance.
A friend found two sailcovers in a dumpster, in new condition.
I once saw a coil of rigging wire abandoned on a beach, big enough to rig about 3 dozen boats.
I traded a set of plans for my interior plywood and my mast. I scrounged all my deck beams for free, from a building that was being torn down. I was given my first rigging wire ,which I later replaced for about $20.
My woodstove cost me $1 per pound from a scrapyard. Now it's $2 per pound.My interior trim was gumwood from shipping crates. Much plywood I scrounged off the beach.I still see a lot of free stuff around. Paints are still free at recycling centres.
My sheet blocks cost me less than $1 each and take less than 20 minutes each to make, yet are stronger and more relliable than most commercially made ones ,which are exorbitantly priced. Ditto my $80 furler, and my $750 , 540 gallon a day watermaker.
So how do you itemise these things? New price is irrelelvant. Wholesale is irrelevant. It would only be relevant to someone who is totaly devoid of any trace of resourcefulness .
Brent

 

Interesting discussion. I cant help but wonder if the gentlemen who reckons it is BS, or some of the others, have actually taken the time to have a look at the Bourne site? Mr Swain also has a great point point about resourcefulness, talking fitout, salvaged timber for fitout, Bourne mentions avoiding "marine" prices. Point is, they both have good points. One thing to throw in - a few years ago, a large, well built, aluminium boat sank off Tasmania. 3 deaths. Corrosion in one spot enabled rapid inflow of water, resulting in sinking. Metal boats are not infallible.

 

I am very familiar with Mr Bournes web site and all his postings.
I am also a fan of bargains and recycled items for boats - and try to incorporate all these things in my projects.
But as far as the saying "Itemising the prices of a homebuilt boat is a waste of time", that just shows me a builder who is saying "I dont want to really know the value of the boat I am building, or how much I spent"
There are thousands of half finished boats around the world for sale, because the builders didnt cost the project beforehand, they all didnt want to know. So they found out the hard way. Anyone who doesnt cost a project before they start is a fool.
And I stand by my statement that anyone who thinks they can build a boat for $50,000 to the same standard as a $400,000 (retail price) is full of BS.
If that kind of competition were possible, Mr Bourne would have built another 20 boats by now, and retired on his fortune.
As it stands, his potential market is virtually zero, because the design is uninsurable until he gets a qualified NA to put their credentials on the method, and that doesnt look like it is happening in a hurry.

 

Points taken. You are right re fitting out, some costs - cartain items cost the same, whatever the hull. And standards for dollars invested? Of couse the big dollar boat is going to be (hopefully, because I have seen the occasional bit of slack workmanship) better. What I was trying to say is that there is no perfect material for building, because what is great in some aspects or places may not work so well in others - as in a multihull has advantages in thin water, but has a disadvantage in a marina. In the case of the Bourne use of materials, I think it is a good example of thinking outside the norm, and that, in this standardised and (sadly) over legalised world of ours, should be applauded. Steel (and aluminium) are very good boatbuilding materials. Only problem is, put a big enough hole in the hull, and, we have a problem. The seriously dented boat is a great example of the positive aspect - the Titanic was a negative. So, does Mr Bourne have a good idea? Depends on your priorities. The aspect of his site that I was getting at is that he is aiming at the home builder, as is Mr Swain - and both are right for those who want to go with their priorities. Cheers.

 

I've never done a price itemising, yet have been cruising since my early twenties. I built all the boats I've owned. Is some one suggesting I've been doing it all wrong?
Most abandoned boat projects you see in backyards were too big , or the owners were suckered into believeing that they could use only the most expensive materials and gear, or died from lack of resourcefulness, not because of lack of itemising.
I know how much I spent on my boat. I had $4,000 when I started , and launched her a month later with $40 in my pocket. Aside from normal living expenses I had another $2,000 go thru my pocket by the time I got her sailing and livable ,5 months later.
Ingenuity, practicality, and both offshore cruising experience and steel boatbuilding experience have a lot more to do with the quality of a steel boat than how much money you spend on her. The saying "You only get what you pay for " is a sucker 's lure that has been used to sell a lot of junker used cars , etc. If it were true , consumer advocates would not have to do all that research. They could tell the quality of anything by simply reading the price tag. One would have to be incredibly gullible to believe that.
The plywood I scrounge off the beach has been thoroughly tested with extreme exposure to weather , something that I buy new in a lumber yard doesn't offer. Lumber yard plywood commonly delaminates after it is installed.
Spending a lot of money doesn't guarantee quality. New Beneteaus cost 50 times smuch as my boat cost me, but are nowhere near 60 times as strong or seaworthy. In fact they are far less so.I could sail right thru a Beneteau without suffering more than cosmetic damage .The reverse is anything but true.
As I mention in my book, there is a big diference between resale value and resale price . Resale price is what you can get for a boat. Resale value is the difference between what you can get for her and what she cost you in the first place.Many people fail to understand the concept and spend an extra $40,000 on a boat to increase the resale price by $20,000, a net loss of 50% in resale value.
The resale value of my boats has been up to 6 times what they cost to build . The resale price of expensive boats is usualy far less than they cost, not counting lost cruising time .
This is not a rehearsal. When a day is spent working to pay for an expensive boat , you can never buy that day back ,no matter how rich you are.
You are far less likely to get a huge hole in your hull from corrosion , especially with a steel hull ,than you are to get a huge hole in your hull from a collision with a floating container or any other floating debris.
Brent

 

Brent, the reason you havn't been itemising your "bits" is that you are happy to improvise and use what you can, and end up with whatever it will buy at the time. If the most you ever want to spend on a boat is $6000, and you have $7000 in you pocket, then you are simply putting the limit on the boat by price. Not wrong in itself, but a lot of people think that $7000 won't buy a sufficiently comfortable boat (me included).
Your boats do not have a $7000 new engine (which is only a 50hp outboard), autopilot, stainless steel pulpits, holding tanks, pressure toilets, hot and cold water etc etc etc
Most of these things are not a good idea to buy secondhand, and I just plain DO believe that you only get what you pay for. Sure, you have to be carefull about paying too much, but it just doesnt pay to get cheap and nasty substitutes for quality gear. When I spend - it bloody does guarantee quality!!!!!

If you ever get into a project that costs more than a months salary, you better do a very carefull list of stuff you need. You said yourself - most boats get abandoned because the project was too big. Well, how the heck do you know if its too big unless you do a detailed, itemised list ?????

 

Steel boats

The first engine for my boat ,a ten HP diesel ,cost me $1,000. The Chinese are selling a similar one for $650 new, today. It did the job for 12 years of cruising 11 months a year and a trip to Mexico and back.
I built my own windvane for $1 a pound for stainless. It works far better than most commercially built ones and is far stronger and more reliable.
My SS pulpit , pushpit and lifelines cost me $1 per pound and are far stronger and safer than any commercially made ones, being sch 40 pipe instead of the knee high stainless tinfoil most commercialy made ones are..
I built my own airhead style composting head . It cost me under $20, and eliminates the need for a holding tank anywhere.
Very few offshore boats use a pressure head, so that question is irrelevant for most cruisers.Who'd want anything that complex on a cruising boat given the deluge of advice from experienced cruisers to keep it simple .I wouldn't be so foolish even if I won the lottery.In fact I wouldn't change boats if I did win the lottery.My current boat is the result of the experience gained in three boats , 35 years of mostly full time cruising, and 9 singlehanded Pacific crossings and I would change very little if I were building again . It is very comfortable, far more comfortable that going to work for another ten years to pay for things I neither want nor need.
My water comes from the tank cold enough. For hot water I put a kettle on the stove then turn the radio on to listen to the traffic report and see what the consumers are doing to aquire their water heaters, etc etc.
People who bought Edsels thought that spending the money would guarantee quality. There is a lot of Edsel type high priced cruising equipment on the market. You imply that there is no such thing as a ripoff. How gullible can one get?
People who buy Beneteaus are gullible enough to believe that they are buying quality, when much of what they are paying for is promotion to suck them into believing that.
That takes care of points you've tried to make so far. Now what are the etc's .
Brent

 

You made the point very well - you never buy more than a 10hp engine. More power to you, but a lot of boats would be a risky package on a piddling 10 hp, especially in big sea conditions.
As for the stainless steel prices - I can get about that much selling for scrap, let alone buying it.
You can play the "I am so clever, I never pay anything for good stuff game" here on these pages, but some of us live in the real world where stainless steel doesnt grow on trees.

 

What I'm tryin to do is challenge the ******** elitism that tries to discourage low income people from ever dreaming of being able to go cruising, by promoting the elitist myth that only the rich are allowed to go cruising.What I'm trying to do is show people how to get out of the consumer rat race by using their own resourcefulness, instead of their chequebooks and having to work far longer than neccessary to pay for it all.
I live in the real world , not the illusion that is consumerism, where super gillible people are convinced that throwing huge amounts of money at a problem always gets better results, and that there is no other way to do it. This is done with the interests of the people at whom money is being thrown at being given higher priority than the interests of people who are just trying to get off the treadmill. This attempt at making cruising the exclusive playground of the rich is moraly disgusting.
As I mentioned in my book, you can judge the quality of advice by taking a hard look at what it has done for the person offering it. If your goal is to get of the treadmill quickly , easily and semi permanently, then you are better off getting your advice from someone who had had success at getting off it quickly ,and long term with a minimum of effort.
I first headed offshore singlehanded for New Zealand at the ripe old age of 23, after having worked at only labourers jobs since I was 19. I've been cruising 11 months a year since my mid twenties. That is where my way of doing things has gotten me. How long did it take you to get similarly semi retired? That defines your qualifications to advise people how to get off the treadmill and out cruising.
Brent

 

Well Brent, you are sure going about it the wrong way then.
You are so keen on reversing the elitism, you have gotten into "inverse snobbery" where you are telling people the *only* way to go boating is to say "to hell with the standards, just follow your instincts".
What a piece of egoism to tell people they should forget carefull planning and thinking through the problems. There are enough "stranded" sailors who reached the end of their funds, drove their families mad, and lost the drive and enthusiasm because of poor planning, without encouraging more if it.
I have done the creative off the cuff projects. I helped my son drag hand cut poles out of the bush, maxed out my credit card so he could scrounge the secondhand hardware and fittings, spent hours helping nail the timber cladding and lifting the roofing on by hand, digging the plumbing pits and trenches with a pick and shovel and searching for the gravel and rocks in abandoned quarries for paving and walls.
He now has a house that cost a small credit card but is valued at six times the monetary value, and he is out of the mortgage rut. The reason I supported him though, was so he could learn the value and importance of understanding how to budget time, money, plan a big project and execute it efficiently with the least cost of time and family.
And whats wrong with a guy that spends 20 years at the coalface and now has enough funds to say "bugger it - I just want it!", and go and buy the complete answer off a showroom floor is wrong too?
It takes all sorts in this world.

 

and why not let this pointless debate rest at that. rwatson, you are quite right in your replies and you raised some valid points.
And so did Brent. I actually respects his resourcefulnesses to get his boat(s) equipped, and hey, he is sailing whilst many of us try to afford it....

This statement rwatson, is partly true. From my experience over the last 30 years in boating is that almost all amateur boat projects that came to a sudden death, is because the would be sailor tried to built to big a boat. Most boats tackled by amateurs are in the deep 30's and mid 40's with some bigger ones here and there.
Try to explain to a laymen that a 43ft is a much larger boat than a 41ft and he will laugh at you Most stock plans in my view, and I stand corrected, are sold because of the interior layout, not that it is seaworthy, but gimmicky, and herein lies the tragedy.
Imagine our would be sailor trying to persuade his wife for her blessing to get a boat built, and what better way to show her an interior plan with all the staterooms, big galley and not to forget, the double heads. Obviously, the bigger the boat, the better the picture and after some time, another hull left to rust

I am building sail boats since 1988 and it always amazes me when someone rocks up to look at the boats, and one of the first questions are; how many people can sleep in her..

 

Over 90% of the dozens of boats I've helped people build have been finished by their first owners. The reason is because they were simple and inexpensive to finish.
If you want to spend 20 years at the coalface before getting free, then Rwatson's advice is the way to go.
If you want to get away, and off the treadmill quickly , then you'd best get your advice from someone who has not only accomplished that, but who has helped hundreds of others accomplish that.
Brent