Steel hull isolation: alternatives to foam?

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by MarijoV, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    You could put a computer fan sucking the air out of the bilge , let air in at the other end ,and thus make the bilge into a built in , low power ,dehumidifier. As long as bilge water was increasing rather than decreasing, you'd know you were sucking water out of the air ,rather than adding it.
     
  2. bcervelo
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    Location: Somerset West, SA

    bcervelo Junior Member

    Not sure if this product has been mensioned, I use to build canal boats here in the UK and we used a product from 3M called Thinsulate its the same stuff you get in gloves and other thermal clothing.
    It comes in a roll your cut it to size and stick to the hull with a water based glue from 3M.
     
  3. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Just a update:

    I received this mail today:

    will keep the boardname confidential, but he is around here.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  4. majay
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: Ottawa, ON

    majay CN 35

    Use of Armaflex on two Canadian tall ships (Fibreglass/Steel)

    I just wanted to post a message about the Armaflex insulation recommended by Richard (Apex1) on this post.

    I had asked earlier about it for my own steel yawl, but my day job is the management of two brigantines, one which is undergoing an extensive refit to become registered as a passenger vessel, and one that requires the installation of insulation in her steel engine room.

    Here is a little case study of a brigantine and my own yawl that decided to go with spray foam years ago, and what our experience has been with the Armaflex insulation product so far.

    First; the price.

    It was mentioned in this forum that the cost of Armaflex was exceptionally expensive, so I braced myself for the quote. Truth is, seeing that the words "marine grade" are synonymous with "expensive", we were ready to shell out a lot of cash for the stuff...however, we were surprised to learn that an entire roll of .5" Armaflex measuring 70ft x 4ft came to $507 (CDN).

    Second; the quality.

    Even if you think that $500 is expensive for 70'x4' consider this; Armaflex is treated with Microban, and is resistant to mold and mildew. It's also fire-rated under NFPA standards (and to Transport Canada's marine standard- B-15) We were quoted for the type with the self-adhesive, which makes it very very easy to apply, but if you aren't confident in that, they also have an epoxy substance that they can supply. As for appearance, it's black in colour and seems kind of like a rubbery/closed-cell foam mattress you'd use for camping. It's easy to cut- and isn't messy like spray or fibre.

    Third; Approved by Transport Canada

    Everything we install in our ships must be first approved by Transport Canada- and some things- like the brand new wiring we installed last year- they get pretty serious about (as an aside, don't use Teck cable in your boat, the stuff with the aluminum conduit, it corrodes like mad- TC made us replace it all this year) I digress- anyway, Armaflex was not already on their list of approved products, so we submitted it for careful scrutiny with the spec sheets and it was approved within the week.

    Fourth; take it from me, the guy who's scraping out foam insulation from a can on a 110ft brigantine and his own boat. On the brigantine, the spray foam between the hull and the ceiling (which was pine tongue and groove) was soaked with water...it was also mouldy...and the tongue and groove was rotten. On my own boat I found the same thing...wet foam and mould growing (and for some reason the epoxy paint under the foam in contact with the hull is also coming off in sheets...ugh).

    For those of you who are looking for a case study, look no further. Spray foam (poly) when in contact with moisture, soaks up water and breeds moulds like crazy...you can try it out for yourself, but in terms of labour alone, it is a really really expensive and time consuming clean-up operation.

    Hope that helps....and if you know any kids in Ottawa (or area) that want to sail a tall ship this summer, we are looking for trainees! www.tallshipsadventure.org
     
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  5. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    I've been living aboard full time in my spray foamed steel boat in BC since 1984 and have had no problem with mold.
     
  6. capt littlelegs
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: England

    capt littlelegs New Member

    You've only got .5 inch insulation... no wonder it's cheap, what good is that? You need at least two inches! If you used the wrong spray foam out of a can what do you expect? If you've got water and mould why is that the foams fault, even Armaflex absorbs water, check the spec and fix the leaks? Armaflex is ok for engine rooms but not all over for proper heat insulation, did you even ask about approval for professionaly sprayed foam? Armaflex still has to be expensively installed properly without condensation inducing gaps! Hardly a case study with your problems, I don't think you are managing this job to the best considered result available.
     
  7. M&M Ovenden
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Ottawa

    M&M Ovenden Senior Member

    I beleive Majay has done his homework. As it is, options are quite limited for the FairJeanne and Black Jack as Transport Canada specifically prohibits the use of Polyurethane Foams in passenger vessels. About the thickness mentioned, I don't know what you base your judgment on. Do you know the vessels, any idea on the climate or conditions the operate in and insulation expectations from operators? All cases can't be compared to each other, variables change. As far as I can see, from all info provided, the .5 armaflex falls into recommendations for vessels operated in moderate climate conditions, which, I believe is the case with the Ottawa brigs.


    Transport Canada
    Marine Safety
    TP 11717

    STANDARDS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION
    AND INSPECTION
    OF SMALL PASSENGER VESSELS (Vessels of 15 to 150 Gross Tonnage)
    Transport Canada

    point 19.1.3 (b) The use of polyurethane foam as insulation material is not permitted.

    -------------

    Product data and thickness recommendations:
    see doc attached

    certificates:
    http://www.armacell.com/www/armacel...2028D88D97A4B307C1256EDD005E1B42?OpenDocument CLICK ON RIGHT HAND MENU ON CERTIFICATS

    pleasure vessel application:
    http://www.armacell.com/www/armacel...2028D88D97A4B307C1256EDD005E1B42?OpenDocument CLICK ON RIGHT HAND MENU ON JOB STORY -PLEASURE SAILING
    -------------

    I specifically asked for specification data about products you are praising

    Post #130 in "A cape Horn vessel"

    I am still waiting for solid information as anecdotal comments from a non identifiable source is not very persuasive. I am always in search of the best, and open to all suggestion and leads; but for such investment (not only the financial but also the commitment it involves) as insulating a hull I rather base my decisions on pertinent data and identifiable case studies.

    Murielle
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  8. majay
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: Ottawa, ON

    majay CN 35

    Just use cotton balls and white glue.

    I don't think I was clear in my earlier post. The foam I am referring to is spray foam from a can, purchased at stores like Home Depot. A popular brand is "Great Stuff Expanding Foam" used for filling gaps between windows and doors.

    For those who have had their boats professionally spray foamed I can tell you that I have no experience with this, good or bad, and there was no intentions of including professionally sprayed-in foam in my earlier post.

    Regarding Captain "Littlelegs" comments...

    I work with a board that has a considerable amount of experience in the marine industry. We research our products and do our homework, but sometimes (in my experience) there isn't going to be a perfect solution to a particular problem. In this case there is a pretty wide debate about the "right" insulation to use and an entirely separate one about how it should best be applied. Lots of grey areas. So I found a professional that has used a product successfully for a number of years (Richard), took the name of that product and read the spec sheets. Then our office called the company. Then we discussed it with our nav arch and engineer. Then we called Transport Canada and discussed it with them. Based on the information we received, it was, and remains, the product best suited for our needs.

    If you're able to substantiate your opinions on manners pertaining to insulation (and not managerial skills) I would welcome your constructive feedback.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  9. capt littlelegs
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    Location: England

    capt littlelegs New Member

    That is my point, you are only basing your experience on household can spray foam which is totally unsuitable. You have not investigated the professional close cell foam used in the marine and offshore business. If you don't consider it as an option then you've not done your job properly, I'm only telling you about it not doing your job by researching it.
     
  10. majay
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: Ottawa, ON

    majay CN 35

    ugh...

    I don't think that any further comments from me in defense of your assumptions will produce anything constructive on this forum. Take the post for what it is. I had a failure with one product and success (so far) with another. Bantering about my job doesn't help anyone, especially me.
     
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  11. capt littlelegs
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: England

    capt littlelegs New Member

    We are talking mainly about private vessels here and heat insulation to prevent heat loss and heat gain plus elimination of condensation. Commercial vessels will no doubt have specific requirements for various reasons but to quote only one type as a non permitted benchmark for all vessels and foams (Armaflex is a foam!) then you are missing out. You need to find out yourself what spray foam is acceptable for your application with the same, similar or better spec as Armaflex as there is no one type. There's no point in asking me for a specific formulea! Google spray foam manufacturers and ask them!

    http://www.foamandcoatingequipment.com/ see the video.

    Armaflex only specifies temperatures for pipes and tanks, I'm talking about surface and overall heat loss values, the R and U-value. This can be calculated for insulation thickness from inside and outside temperatures etc. but generally the thicker the better in keeping the vessel or building cool in summer and warm with minimal heating in winter. Loose material just does not come close to giving the best overall performance for this so no, Majay has not done his homework by a long way and his experience is no testimomial for others as he claims!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-value#U-value

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_insulation_materials

    http://www.isothane.com/insulation/Default.htm

    http://www.isothane.com/foams/2006reprocell300.htm

    http://www.isothane.com/foams/2005ld40carvida.htm

    http://www.ncfi.com/news_display.cfm?id=49

    http://www.businessmagnet.co.uk/company/expandingfoam-135582.htm
     
  12. capt littlelegs
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: England

    capt littlelegs New Member

    You may well be right that what you use is right for you but you cannot state that this situation and your bad experience is a case study for others with private boats and intending to use the correct closed cell spray foam, especially when it is apparent you are unaware of it's extensive use in boats!

    Good luck with your job but I think you should have consulted experts in the field rather than a forum for your information because if it comes to it you can always say it was the best professional information at the time, a forum with such diverse opinions, misinformation and prejudice is not!
     
  13. majay
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: Ottawa, ON

    majay CN 35

    Misunderstanding

    OK...I think you misunderstood my comments. I did not mean to dissuade people from going the route of professionally applied spray foam used on many commerical and private vessels. I was trying to explain that I did not have success with canned foam such as Great Stuff, or other like gap fillers. I don't think you would recommend someone going to Home Depot, putting a mask on and spraying the inside of their hull with window and door gap filler from a can. That's all I meant.

    Secondly, yes, it is absolutely critical that experts in the field are consulted before undertaking such projects. It's common sense. We didn't want a professionally applied "spray" foam for a number of reasons (not because we think it's terrible); but that doesn't mean we didn't research other alternatives...from marine, to industrial to residential insulations...in our case it seems as though Armaflex is best when compared to other insulations for our unique purposes. This forum was a great place to go to find other ideas...and we found one.
     
  14. capt littlelegs
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: England

    capt littlelegs New Member

    Ok, good luck with the sailing.
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Nonsense, YOU should do your homework! Or stay out of discussions you have no clue about, as other members told you already several times.

    Why did the best megayacht builders leave the spray foam and went to Armaflex, whats your guess? All idiots?

    What a utter nonsense..............
    ...or to say it positive: thank you to show us your real expertise!:p

    Regards
    Richard
     
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