stability with speed

stability and racing

You are right Richard and I agree with you on multi-hulls. One catamaran sank several days ago in Phuket with one fatality. Capsized due to strong gust of wind. Thailand is one of places where I do business, and Phuket has clear open waters. Except for tsunami when I was there, I survived, no wave problems. This wind must have come out of nowhere. Monohulls do seem much more stable, if slower than catamarans. Any thoughts on pirate threat in world wide sailing? And on subject of stability, what does anyone think of those galleons from 300 years ago that used to sail the world? Would such a boat still be respected or has modern boat building technology made those types of designs obsolete?

 

Even while builders and designers were limited to the materials of those far off days, the galleon was superceded by ships with superior sailing capability once the tactic of boarding from castles was abandoned in favor of superior sailing and gunnery.

 

Let me see if I understand everything correctly. Fiberglass is bad, even on boats claimed to be high quality like Alden. Steel is good only if covered with epoxy paint to protect it from rust. Aluminum is the best and unsinkable? Titanium is too expensive to use as building material. Wood/epoxy is good, but steel is better. And I need to be careful to choose the builder. Someone with experience? Or any good welder in Thailand or so can do the job? Labor is cheaper there. Multi-hulls are a no-no.

 

All steel boats built today are epoxy covered and rust protected! The quality of the process varies though.
Aluminium is not the "best" nor is it "unsinkable", it is just another good choice with advantages and drawbacks as any other material.
Wood Epoxy is a prime choice too, no doubt, but it definetively is weaker than metal when hammering on a reef.

ALL materials have drawbacks, ALL!
Boatdesign and boatbuilding is a endless chain of compromises, no perfect solution possible.

When REAL passagemaking is what you have in mind (not dreaming it, doing it), a metal boat should be your prime choice.
If it is only "extended cruising" what comes out finally, a wood epoxy one is probably the better choice.
When your average use ends up at the average use of average Joe, a cheap plastic tub could be fine too.

Have a loook here to narrow down your requirements, before we are talking material and design choices in deep.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/design-spiral-where-start-building-boat-28580.html

And yes, there are recommendations on yards, once we know what we are looking for.

Forget about building in Thailand or other "exotic" places! You would have to engage a project manager to supervise and control the building process full time. Otherwise you end up in a nightmare and spend more money for less quality, than you would, building in western Europe!
No welder in the world can do a professional boatbuilding job! They can do a good (or even perfect) metal job, but thats just a part of boatbuilding. Leave it to the yard to employ or engage skilled craftsman with the cert.s needed.

Regards
Richard

 

Thank you, Richard, you are very informative. Let me see. My requirements are simple. Strong boat. I like speed, but not at the expense of stability and strength. I never crashed any of sailboats, powerboats, and catamarans that I sailed over many years, so I am a pretty good sailor. Still, some idiot in his boat might hit me, I have heard of killer whale attack on wood boat, sandbars, hidden reefs, whatever. Things can happen. So, I need a strong boat, hopefully with some safety floatation devices built in. I am in contact now with european naval architect who designs wood epoxy boats, I always like those. Trying to figure out if possible or better to build boat out of wood then fiberglass it like some people say ... not sure about that one. Sad to hear aluminum is sinkable, maybe steel would be a better choice. Boat size 42 to 65 feet in length, about 18 meters plus/minus. Budget not really an issue, I have businesses all over the world and always make money trading stocks/options on NYSE. But my real concern is going down in middle of nowhere, maybe some pirate threat. I can manage most of my business by internet/phones from anywhere in the world, so long voyages are what's expected. I am so sick of land. Property taxes. Bla bla bla. Some real freedom would be nice. I know I am still yound at 35, but maybe time to retire. Enjoy life.

 

There are no Killerwhales attacking boats, thats a tale.
You might be interested to have a look what others are thinking about passagemaking boats in general:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...o-anywhere-trawler-build-side-side-28678.html

and me in special.....

Do´nt focus too much on the material for now, be focused on your requirements (and which of them to sacrifice first).
A wood epoxy boat is glassed at the outside in general, for a better abrasion resistance, thats all.

A STRONG boat can be built out of any material common in boatbuilding, the question is to find a balance between fear and demand!
Extra flotation is not found on true bluewater boats. (and not needed) Once they are behind a certain point of damage they sink.
That is ok, and all the sailing world can live with it.

Too much fear means not enough fun! Bear in mind that the entire commercial fleet of the world is sinkable and driven by single engines! No belt and suspenders needed, when game is over, it´s over, et basta.

Regards
Richard

 

OK, I see what your saying, Richard. Thanks. I saw program on TV, english sailor with family, wood sailboat, 1979? Rammed by killer whale, adrift in pacific for 5 weeks, survived on rainwater, fishing. Could be fake, but ... whatever. So, let me get your opinion on this, because with family aboard, sinking not an option. Double hull, many airtight compartments with some floating type of foam, and a small back up escape survival boat in tow or so. Would that be safe enough and possibly close to unsinkable? I was a professional swimmer in university, but family isn't. Therefore, safety first. Also, heard that it's not easy to insure wood or metal boats, steel requires ultrasound of hull to check metal thinkness/rust? And .... must I carry full insurance traveling around the world like auto insurance in case I hit someone with boat, like liability?

 

Richard,

Surely you need to expound on this a bit further. As it stands, its extremely misleading. I build mostly in wood but have experience with fiberglass boats also. There are multitudes of excellent fiberglass boats being built and sailed around the world. All boats need to be properly designed and built for both their intended use and the material of construction.

Close friends include circumnavigations in wood, fiberglass and ferrocement. A nearby builder turns out excellent boats in steel and aluminum is good also. For many (most) people, fiberglass provides the most reasonable access to a good boat. More backyard builders work in plywood than any other material.

 

There are no differences in insurance rates for ALL type of material except Ferrocement.

The unsinkable boat is a dream not worth to bring into reality. A well designed, perfect executed vessel with several watertight compartments is a very safe place to be in.
I never had any problem to go to sea with my children on a boat designed and built to my requirements. Of course these vessels have not been similar to a average dock queen or charter boat. Worlds away!
A double bottom is a easy to achieve and common feature on todays passagemaking motorboats. Not so common for the sailing community. Not available in glass or wood.
A double hull is a nonsense and was never built as far as I know. (except for commercial vessels, where there actually is NO double hull, just tanks inside the hull, doubling the skin)

Steel does not require anything more than other materials, just proper preparation and corrosion protection!
Even a GRP hull needs sort of corrosion protection, provided by the gelcoat and paint, or by a layer of epoxy resin to hold the water out of the laminate.

Yes you MUST insure your boat with some sort of liability insurance, you otherwise run in severe trouble in many countries.
The average coverage for a fully insured yacht is in the ballpark of 1,5% of the boats value per annum.

Have you had a look at the thread about my next boat?

Regards
Richard

 

No, sorry I do not elaborate further on that. It is as it is, the weakest material is GRP, period. Of course it is possible to produce sufficient boats even in GRP. I do so! Unhappy but successful.

Regards
Richard

 

My only experience of an accident in a fiberglass boat was an eye opener. A buddy and I were in an open sailboat and stalled in the wind shadow of tall trees when a large motorboat towing another one came charging by at some speed.

A sudden wind direction change or maybe a squall chose this exact moment to lay us over straight for the motorboats. My buddy was crew and unfortunately froze when we needed to gibe and it was then too late to come into the wind so we were driven between them. Neither of us had much experience of sailing and things were happening too fast to figure out a fix on the go. The best I could do was to try for a glancing blow and I'm not at all sure I did any good at all.

I saw the gunnel pushed in several inches by the bow of the second motorboat which shouldered us to one side, fortunately without a capsize. I remember the motorboat gave me a sharp rap on the noggin, which presumably served to keep me inside the boat. The wooden gunnel was badly bruised and needed some repair but there was no detectable damage to the fiberglass at all. I have had a hearty respect for that material since then.

A wood boat would have survived I am sure but with cracked ribs and planks; an Ally boat would have had a nasty dent; A steel boat might have been able to take the impact without damage, perhaps, but it would have to have been much heavier. I also recall early fiberglass experiments in my model aircraft days, when one of the club members took a big hammer repeatedly to a fiberglass engine cowling to see what it would take. he could craze it a little but it would not break. Tough stuff.

I suspect the regular materials used for building boats are used because they are good for that purpose.

 

You like blue water cruising when you agree that here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JShGZXCpLeA&feature=related


the fun starts!

Not every day of course.

 

Yes, Richard, I looked at your thread for your next boat, but did not see any photos. Based on description, it's a long range power boat? Large one at that. I am curious as to why do you need to go that far north. Fishing? Tours? Commercial? Russians make nice icebreakers, I always wanted to take a tour on one of those, but that's the extent of my interestest in poles. My wife wants to go south poles to study pinguins, so metal would be nice for my boat, but I myself have little interest in pinguins. You mentioned, and let me know if I understand it correctly, that you built fiberglass boats? Why do you have such dislike for fiberglass? Other users seem to like fiberglass. I just love wood for classical reasons, it's just beautiful and always been used for centuries.

 

I have an idea that can put all this material talk to rest. Since I own many guns, I can test them on various materials. I already know AK-47 round will go through tree with 3 foot/1 meter diameter, hand gun ammo won't. Not even .357 magnum. If steel is thick enough, it will stop assault rifle, I don't think aluminum going to stop AK round. I know they use fiberglass type of material for bulletproof vests, but only Russians make vest that stops AK-47 round, I think they use plate or laminate with fiberglass around, didn't study exact design of that vest. Banks use bulletproof glass, so there must be some significant strength in glass. I was trained by airborne, so I know about penetration capabilities, .300 magnum would penetrate almost anything as will .50 caliber round, yet ... when in sailing would one come across such a force??? Can anyone tell me what is the most common reason for sinking a boat?

 

There are pictures (no 1 only) in my thread.

Large is relative, that will be a much smaller boat than the last one.
The northern seas are somehow magic, especially in Winter. And the Baltic freezes soon and often. I am not interested in Penguins either.
The Russians make lousy ships, the Finnish Icebrekars are of a far better quality. (and I have a commercial license, made mainly on Icebreakers)

Yes you understood right. I build boats in wood epoxy and in Fiberglass. The latter for economical reasons only, not because the material is good. It is sufficient as I said.

When going to higher latitudes is part of your plan, you have to build in steel or aluminium. Glass and wood are completely out of the race.

The material you refer to is Kevlar! Not glass. Kevlar gives a bulletproof laminate. (glass too if it is allowed to weigh tonnes per m².)
But Penguins do´nt shoot at you, so, bulletproof is´nt what you need. You need a stable hull to withstand contact with ice, containers, sleeping whales and the aformentioned reefs.
Thats a metal hull. The fact that you can shoot straight through a 10mm Aluminium structure does´nt mean anything, a 10mm hull plating gives a very rugged hull. (just as a example)

And there is not such a big difference between steel and Al. Some advantages of the one are outweighed by some of the other one.
If it´s a boat it is a compromise, if it´s not a compromise it does´nt float.

Maybe you think again, why a boatbuilder with a serious affinity for wood / wood Epoxy, has choosen to build in metal. And that is my 6th boat in metal then! That was no joke with the link above!
When the going gets tough, the fun starts for me! A flat pond is boring, I like to feel the power of the elements from time to time. A new set of tableware and TV´s is the price to pay. (always the TV´s fail when it gets hard into it)
And going through new ice is a sort of experience one can only understand when one has done it.

Regards
Richard