SpeedDream: World's fastest sailboat?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by JosephT, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    Ran across this boat on Facebook. Some rather bold claims (50 knots max speed, 1000 nautical miles in 24hrs).

    Ref: http://www.facebook.com/speeddream?sk=wall

    The telescopic keel looks quite fragile, as does the lifting foil...at least for a hull designed to circumnavigate the globe. I could see it doing well in a day race along the coast, but those parts just look too fragile to me for a 25,000 mile circumnavigation.

    FYI finally decided to crew for a yacht race (Clipper 13-14). Looking to do the sleigh ride on Leg 3 (Cape Town to Perth).
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Vlad Murnikov, who is behind the concept, is an innovative designer who believes as I do ,that it is possible to build a monohull sailboat that can beat a multihull.
    In the real world it has already happened with windsurfers and the Moth foiler.
    Windsurfers have beaten most multi speed records with some exceptions and the Moth is faster than any beach cat under 20'.
    Vlads horizontal lifting foil is similar to DSS(Dynamic Stability System) invented by Hugh Welbourn and being used successfully on at least two raceboats with more coming all the time including a Mini 6.5 going against the "scow grain" with a narrow hull and DSS.

    PS-good luck in your race!

    Here are some threads about the original concept and a couple of prototypes:

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/speed-dream-27-prototype-39798.html

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/speed-dream-35-prototype-36205.html

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/monohull-speed-speed-dream-vlad-murnikov-30880.html
     

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  3. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    I believe it's possible too Doug, but the current concept doesn't seem suitable for a circumnavigation. Structural fatigue appears to be a given considering the thin, flexible nature of the keel & lifting foil. It would be interesting to see his structural & fatigue analysis of those parts for say a year of simulated time on the water...including routine heavy loads in rough seas.

    Aside from getting stuck in fishing nets and other debris, the bulb canting keels are no doubt more vulnerable than a keeled hull. This article points out some of the failures.

    http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?SEID=2&Nid=21246&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0

    Again, I have no doubt they're fast boats. It's the safety/reliability that will always be brought into question with lighter, weaker parts.
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Joseph, the critical point of Vlads design is that the canting keel is supposed to be sailed out of the water most of the time(see "Q" below). I looked at a new 18' canting keel boat to see if DSS was used could it replace the canting keel: answer-with the canting keel fixed the boat had more RM upwind with DSS-and way more off the wind. (see the DSS thread in the "Sailboats" forum). Vlad is considering using both a version of DSS and a canting keel but I wouldn't say that configuration is final, a fixed keel + DSS simplifies things a bit.
    As far as a canting bulb keel goes, almost every major monohull round the world race is sailed in boats with just such a keel-and despite popular scuttlebutt to the contrary, they have proved remarkably safe-particularly in recent years.
    I'd be leery of making engineering judgements of Vlads prototypes from very, very early renderings.
    --
    interesting info: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sa...g-racer-cruiser-cruising-sailboats-39460.html
    --

    Picture: "Q" 180 degree cantng keel raceboat, 1-pix by Nicole Scott, 1&2 pix by Andrea Francolini. While still testing this system "Q" suffered a major failure of the mechanism, 4&5 showing Open 60's at max cant-its not too much of a stretch to visualize Vlads concept with the boat a little flatter and the keel in the same position(greater max cant angle) :
    click on image-
     

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  5. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    I'm old school when it comes to keels. The hydraulic rams fail (several occurrences), and I recall a case from a few years ago where Sir Robin Knox-Johnson had to dive into the southern ocean in the Vellux 5 Oceans race to cut away a fishing net.

    Wet suit required! Very risky!

    My biggest complaint from Vlad are his claims at circumnavigation. Specifically:

    "With that in mind our goal is to establish a string of the new records: to reach top speeds in excess of 50 knots on the open ocean, to establish the longest day run of more than 1000 miles, to cross the Atlantic and circle the globe faster than any other yacht."

    Ref: http://www.mxspeeddream.com/the-goal.html

    The longer you go in a boat like this, the increased liklihood you'll have problems with the vulnerable parts I described before. Aside from this the capsize recovery also comes into question.

    In short, I'm of the opinion it's a risky boat. The goal comes across as a line from Star Trek "...to go where no man has gone before blah blah blah."

    No disrespect to the notion of going faster, but reliablity & durability are key design components of endurance racing hulls. I see some obvious corners being trimmed a bit too thin. I will be following the progress of this project that's for sure.
     
  6. Nick.K
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    Nick.K Senior Member

    Sounds fun, go for it!
    Nick
     
  7. Cataphract
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    Cataphract Mechanical Engineer

    There's been a lot of talk about this boat recently, but I'm not too convinced that it will achieve everything Vlad says it will or humble all the multihulls.
     
  8. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    So far none of the boats with flying keel bulbs have proved to be super fast although they compare reasonably well with other canting keel monohulls. I agree that that long telescopic keel assembly looks fragile and the mechanism to drive it looks heavy. When Vlad was challenged on his claims he chose to make personal attacks rather than address the real issues with his design.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===============
    I read his responses and didn't pick up on that-I know he was attacked personally......
    The key to any mono that wants to whup multihulls is foils-no ifs, ands or buts......
     
  10. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Well lets see it happen first Doug, I'll be the first to applaud if Speeddream 100' achieves what he claims rather than all the tiresome and empty posturing we see in these press releases.
     
  11. Collin
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    Collin Senior Member

    I'll believe it when I see it. I'll take the BOR 90 over that any day :D
     
  12. Silver Raven
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    Silver Raven Senior Member

    Gooday all; 'JosephT, Doug, Nick.K, Catap & Corley & of course all the others - - let's see if an 'older' sailor type person can make a positive observation - please.

    Doug - the pictures that you've shown are very informative - - however they are by no means - a round the world image - nor were they intended to be. However - there is not 1 chance in a million that any or all of those boats could match it with 'Banque Populare 5' in a round the world
    Race. I correctly remember the skipper saying - we could have gone faster but we needed to finish. Look at the way 'B-P 5' is built - study the laminate pictures of the building!!! These other toy-plastic boats just don't stack-up - not one little bit.

    Now before you shoot the messenger - please - let us just take a big breath here & watch the 'volvo 70's' soon to leave Auckland & run across the 'roaring 40's' to their next stop over. No money bet of how many break-up however 'B-P 5' didn't - so I feel (am very bloody sure) that these new yachts have a way to go yet. I'm sure they will get above 1000 k/day but not in the next 5 years & I will have bets on that. Noticable is that 'B-P 5' or a newer multi will have lowered the time by 10 hrs or more & be pushing th 1000 k/day speed barrier. Do I recall that B-P 5's top speed is above 1000 k/day or was that just a dream? Remember someone has to get to the end of the race - be it - 24 hrs or around the world - not just around th block or down the road a bit.

    Smarter than I - Vlad & team are by 1000's of % but they are quite a way in real terms from getting it to happen both in dollar terms & at the coal face. Dollar terms are way above $1 billion for the total development & the boat in the water, tested & proven & repaired & sailed around the world & broken the record of both 'B-P 5' & done 1000 k/day or more. That's only one 1/5 of the total challenge. At the coal face - is the - - roaring 40's - - that's the real test.

    Way to big for me. While I am going sailing a rather quick cruising tri in SE Asian waters - I'll never be good enough to do what any of them do however that's not my goal & I'm just a bit older these days.

    Point is - Vlad & team are not able to catch 'B-P 5' & wont be for some time & 2nd going on to beat them & do 1000 k/day is not going to happen all that soon.

    Good sailing everyone, good health & be happy (well that's all about good sailing - no??) Ciao, james
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =======================
    You're 100% right "not all that soon" but I'll bet it will happen. Geez, for the first 45 years of my life there was no chance in hell that you could convince anyone that a small monohull only 11' long could beat ALL beach cats under 20'! No way! But it has happened and now in that size range the fastest sailboat is a monohull-and a tiny little sucker at that..... Never, ever say never.....And you didn't but you may have thought it(ha!).
    Good to see you here ,James-you have some fun....
     
  14. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    My problem is I agree with most of the points here; the boats look fragile but it's early days and who knows they could catch the big multis one day. The first thing Vlad needs to catch is a bank!
     

  15. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    My apologies if I came across all furious I'm not it's just we are so inundated in these PR claims of performance all the time and its normally for boats that dont even exist. I concede that in the other Speeddream thread Vlad only went on the attack after he was challenged by Mal Smith but it was as if his pet project was not able to be questioned from a boat design perspective.

    The thing is that surpassing 24 hour records isnt normally the goal of boats like BP5. So far they have managed 907nm in a 24 hour period which is far closer than any boat that currently exists if they had been focussed solely on getting the 24 hour record they could possibly have altered their routing to stay in the best wind and broken the 24 hour 1000 nautical miles benchmark. In the Jules Verne record they kept their averages down to take it easy on the boat (still impressive though).
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2012
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