Speed Dream 27 Prototype

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Sep 20, 2011.

  1. tomas
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    tomas Senior Member

  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Here is a "Summer of 2013" video from Vlad and his team:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMkJFhh8MWk


    Also an article here: http://sailinganarchy.com/ This is an interview by the Speed Dream Team of Mike Golding.
    Here is a quote I found particularly interesting:

    Currently the 27 is fitted with a very conventional daggerboard arrangement which will need significant revision to a foil system that provides a lift/stability that can be pressed against as the keel blade leaves the water. This must be the key next step development for the boat as the project moves forward. I understand that the design team needed to limit the number of new ideas in a prototype and there had been some thought of including a DSS type system but it was left off. It seems clear that this kind of system coupled with better foils will greatly improve overall performance.
     
  3. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    Hi Doug,
    While it looks relatively quick on some points of sail, perhaps a good measure of whether they have reached or have come close to their stated goal, would be to transfer the rig as is onto a 27ft catamaran of equal weight (excluding the weight of the keel, obviously).
    They could then establish comparative data to see how much work they still need to do, unless of course they have actually reached their stated goal already, but I feel they would be erecting billboards with flashing lights everywhere if that were the case.
     
  4. Gunnar Sommerlund
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    Gunnar Sommerlund Marine Engineer

    I'm sorry for disturbing this relic of a post.

    4 years, almost 5 have past and no data have been publicised? how did this program turn out, was it a success?
    According to my google analysis the project went completely quiet in late 2013.
    Maybe someone have other news about it?
     
  5. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    Indeed. There are a likely a couple of reasons why it died… failure to fulfill the hype might be one. :cool:
     
  6. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    "no data have been publicised?"
    "Figures" be damned.

    No race results = failed hype, as Ozfred sed.
     
  7. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    I recall the prototype was put up for sale. That's the last I heard of it. It was fast and definitely showed some potential. The only negative I saw was how drenched the crew got in relatively mild waves (FF ~13:00 in video below). Interesting how the water just pours over the bow and perpetually drenches the crew. A larger bow with a bit more buoyancy & improved deck water channels might help her along. Definitely a fast boat design though.

    Since then, along comes the America's Cup AC75, which handles the buoyancy issues and brings in a fresh dual purpose foil/keel design. Very innovative to say the least. Anxious to see more sea trials.

    Hats off to both design teams!

     
  8. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    To be honest, is there any evidence these designs are fast? The MX-Ray was notoriously slow upwind according to yardsticks and to several knowledgeable people who have sailed it. And keeping the bow up is a problem in almost all high performance boats. As you say, these designs have the bow down in moderate to slightly fresh winds and flat water, on a reach. Even in those conditions, the water is often pouring over the deck with the crew stacked aft.

    It appears that there is no reserve buoyancy and a shortage of planing surface forward - so what happens when they bear away downwind in a 30 knot gust and a couple of feet of slop over the top of a swell?

    Arguably this is the sort of thing many of us drew on school notebooks, before we learned about high performance dinghy design and found that a significant trend in the last few decades has been towards narrower sterns that can be sunk in order to allow the bow to pivot up. Paul Bieker, for example, showed the Aussie 14 Foot Skiffs the way forward with his narrower sterns and higher chine lines. In 14s, Moths, NS14s, etc, the narrow-stern boats go faster and are safer.

    Almost anyone can design a boat to reach fairly fast in moderate winds. Getting something to get around a course fast in a variety of conditions is very different. And what does one gain from it? Okay, wave impact may be reduced - but those narrow bow sections are producing very little planing lift, so the bow is now lifting out to reduce wetted surface and to improve the planing surface aspect ratio.

    There have been hundreds of development-class boats over the last couple of decades that have indicated that the ultra-fine bow/wide stern concept is an ageing one that is less effective than a more balanced profile in most boats. There have been discussion about Vlad with this issue and I think his reply was basically "Bieker, all the Moth designers, all the NS14 designers, all the Merlin and N12 designers and the cat designers are all wrong and I am right" which is not very convincing since their theories win on the racetrack and Vlad's don't.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Do you have a link to the discussion where you quoted Vlad?
     
  10. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    Probably T rudders on a much narrower stern would help. The triangular shape and leeward heel means that a good percentage of wind pressure just pushes the bow down. With the crew stacked on the windward transom and the bow still submerged, there aren't a lot of options left.

    A proper asymmetric spinnaker on a bowsprit would help to give a bit more lift (a la all modern performance skiffs).
     

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  11. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Doug, look back at previous threads on his dinghy designs, where people like Steve Clark, Richard Woods and Andy from Scotland commented on his designs and he just kept on making incorrect claims such as "I'm revolutionizing the sport - it's a simple fact' and "my mxRay in some distant way helped to improve event the IC."

    Lots of very, very smart people have learned an enormous amount from each other in 40 years of development in high performance dinghies. When someone comes along and says they are throwing all that knowledge away and "revolutionising the sport" it's essentially saying that they are right and everyone else - the proven champions - are wrong.

    By the way, when I looked back at the Speed Dream thread I saw you claiming that Andy shouldn't comment about a type of boat he had not sailed. Doesn't that mean you should never comment about offshore racing boats or skiffs?
     
  12. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    After watching that video all I can say is, what an awful design. Almost any 30 year old beach cat would be faster and drier in those conditions. makes no sense to me.
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ------------------------
    So you made up the quote in post 443?!
     
  14. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    no he paraphrased what Vlad/Brian had written in various places. I have sailed against an MXray, it was very very slow. His other designs look no better. If they were fast you would expect to see videos of them overtaking boats, or even racing against others. All boats look fast by themselves, especially if they are covered in spray

    Richard Woods
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    A "paraphrase" in quotes? Seems (deliberately?) misleading to me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
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