Speed Dream 27 Prototype

Ok, so if you cannot find any information on this mythical race, why did you mention it? How is a non-existent race that there is no evidence for relevant?

Furthermore, if there is no evidence that this race happened, where did you get the idea from in the first place?

 

True. True. But like a bumble bee, it can't really be scaled up.

And it's not particularly useful as boat either.

It is what it is, a simple go fast machine, which is a marvel of design and engineering put to a single purpose.

It should be kept in mind that it has moveable ballast equal to probably at least 60% of it's total all up weight. And that moveable ballast has arms and legs and, most likely, a well functioning brain.

The only way I think you can come close to that in a larger size is to fit a catamaran with such foils and end up with nearly 50% 'moveable ballast' by flying the windward hull. The leeward hull would have a foil supporting the entire weight of the boat.

The crew could then move over to the windward hull, as moveable ballast.

This arrangement would be very difficult to imitate with just one hull and a very long ballast beam, and would probably not work in anything but ideal conditions.

Not only that, but such a system would be liable to capsizing both to leeward and windward, while the catamaran version would only capsize to leeward.

Not only that, but you have to consider the effect wind and waves on a very long, wing like structure. If it catches a wave, gets hit by a sudden wind shear, or even encounters a strong gust or sudden lull, it's all over. Though a foiling multi shares some of the same risks, it doesn't share all of them.

Speed Dream, or some descendent of it, may well become the fastest monohull over 20 ft, and say over 300 lbs.

But it will probably never beat a good foiling cat or tri, or, more than likely, even a good non foiling tri or cat, as the multihull form has just too many built in advantages.

 

A more relevant race would, of course, be between the Speed Dream and a Moth. No doubt Doug can arrange it

Richard Woods

 

=======================
You're right Sharpii, a scaled up Moth would be way too heavy at 60'! But a 60' bi-foiler is possible and would be likely to beat a 60'ORMA tri flying the main hull with a single ama foil carrying 70% of the boats weight. The design potential of such a boat is awesome-but like Randy said-if it could be built:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sa...acing-monofoiler-design-discussion-15143.html
And who knows, Vlad may make the step work without foils........

 

That would be cool. How about it, Doug?

 

Yes, but you've already scolded people about going off topic on this thread and then proceed to take it OT yourself.

 

Speed Dream

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I disagree.....

 

Ok, so just to amuse myself on a Sunday afternoon I did a bit of Googling. Tried a variety of search terms involving Moth, Auckland, AC45, etc, etc.

Only one result so far. Way back in late 2011, someone on Sailing Anarchy mentioned that he'd heard someone claim that a Moth could beat an AC45 upwind. Doesn't say who that someone was. Doesn't say anything about a race.

The next post thoroughly trashes the idea.

Doug, do the guys a favour and tell them how close I am to the mark with this scenario:

You knew about this claim on SA. You have probably known about it for a year. In all that time, you've never been able to find any evidence of a Moth beating an AC45 in a race, but you desperately want it to be true because PHOILZZ!!!!

You felt this thread and yourself were not getting the attention they deserved, even though you had quoted one of your own posts from early in the thread and used red text (and hey, why wouldn't the world be mpressed by that?). So, you dragged up the Moth/AC45 claim in the hope that nobody would point out that you didn't have a leg to stand on, and in the hope that everyone would start going "Wow Doug wow!".

 

Speed Dream

You're dead flat wrong. My friend in Australia, who has been designing and testing high performance sailboats for years, sent me an e-mail last night at 6pm telling me that he had some scuttlebut for me and that he had it on good authority that recently a Moth in the Bay at Auckland walloped an AC 45. He asked me not to use his name-so I won't but he is not the kind of person to make something like this up. I've asked in two places on SA and have written to a foiler designer friend in Auckland that says that he hasn't heard about this but would ask around.
I get "tips" all the time from people-most of which I don't use but this guy and another friend who gave me a tip about altitude control on the AC 72's I used because of their unquestioned reliability.
Your secret plot nonsense is just plain silly.....

 

Old 02-04-2013, 06:46 AM
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Let's try to keep this thread on and about the Speed Dream 27.........
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Ok, so un-named person, who you insist really exists, gave you solid information that he had heard from another un-named dude, who also really exists, about an un-named Moth, which of course exists, and an un-named AC45, of indisputable existence, and a so-called "walloping", which is not further defined, none of which has been heard of by another un-named dude, and which completely contradicts the opinion of a named dude (Bora Gulari) who has thorough knowledge of the polars for both Moths and AC45's.

Looks like I've provided as much evidence for my story as you have for yours.

FWIW, I'll take you at your word for now. That means out of this I score:

1/ You knew about this claim on SA. - Undetermined, since you never mentioned if you had knew about it or not.

2/ You have probably known about it for a year. In all that time, - Undetermined, as above.

3/ you've never been able to find any evidence of a Moth beating an AC45 in a race, - True, since you admit you have no evidence.

4/ but you desperately want it to be true because PHOILZZ!!!! - Hey, don't try to deny that one.

5/ You felt this thread and yourself were not getting the attention they deserved, - Pretty sure most would agree this is also correct.

6/ even though you had quoted one of your own posts from early in the thread and used red text (and hey, why wouldn't the world be mpressed by that?). - Winner.

7/ So, you dragged up the Moth/AC45 claim in the hope that nobody would point out that you didn't have a leg to stand on, - Well that's pretty accurate.

8/ and in the hope that everyone would start going "Wow Doug wow!". - That too.

My accuracy isn't that bad, all things considered.

Now how about that proposed race between an SD 27 and a Moth? Do you think that would be an interesting match? Would you agree that, to be really interesting, an SD 27 would have to be able to comprehensively beat a Moth?

 

Even if it didn't win you'd get comparative data to use for the next boat

A couple of weeks ago I raced a F27 trimaran in the Three Bridge Fiasco in San Francisco. After the race we folded the outriggers and lifted the boat out of the water with the clubs dockside crane and put it on a trailer. We were not the only ones doing that, several F boats followed us, as did Moore 24's, Melges etc

I assume a Speed Dream would also be dry sailed like that. But with 9ft draft (I believe) clearly the keel would have to be raised a) to get near enough to shore and b) to go on the trailer.

So I wondered what happened to the C of G with a massively offset keel and how it affects it in the slings of a travel hoist and how that all is working out in practice?? Does it fall over? Does the raised keel hit the side of the hoist - presumably you need a hoist at least 18ft wide? Do you have to take the keel off for transport? Is that as easy to do as raising a daggerboard? It looks a bit too heavy to man handle?

Nothing to do with speed, but still important for a day racer design to be successful

Richard Woods

 

Shhhhhh Richard...it's all top secret you know When the boat is ready to do 3000 miles in a day more info will be released

 

Was the AC 45 at anchor? Back on topic, the difficulty of trying to outdo the multihulls in the ultimate speed game is that they are ALWAYS at least 15 years ahead of the monos in that respect. So while the Open 60's (with foilTMassistTM) have finally gotten round the world in under 80 days, it's been what, 20 years since the multis did it first (even allowing for a difference in size). And to compare size with size, the latest Open 60's whilst amazing are not exactly on a par with an Orma or a Hydroptere... Given that Banque P V has topped out at just over 900miles in a day, and Pipedream 100 is 30 feet shorter, historical evidence would suggest that it will be at least 30 or possibly 40 years before a smaller mono will approach those speeds, never mind break the 1000 mile barrier the Speed dream team are claiming will be possible. By that time this forum will no longer exist, as will most of it's members. The remainder will be arguing with the next Doug via telepathic link.

In terms of the Speed dream 27, a fair comparison might be the Ventilo M2 cat, or Seacart 26. I sincerely hope they line up, would be interesting.

 

Actually a fairer comparison would be with one of the old Ultra 30's from the 1990's

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=6780

I sailed our beach cat against them and they didn't seem that fast to me so should be fair game for the speed dream

Richard Woods