speed around a course

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Bruce Woods, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

  2. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    Go north from Brisbane 309nm. Not the longest ocean race but it can be serious stuff. At that time of the year you can get the lingering remains of cyclones to the north. Being early this year could give some thrills.

    If you google Brisbane Gladstone race you will get more information. The 2006 race gives evidence that underpins my preference for monohulls. However I think that a good multi will outperform a good mono in most circumstances.

    I believe Dennis Connor proved this a few years ago to the disappointment of the mob on the other side of the Tasman. Also look at all the current sailing speed records. Maybe windsurfers are the exception.

    Rick W.
     
  3. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Hang on Rick,

    Turn left? Isn't there a fair chance of piling into the Great Barrier Reef, or is it further north? I could look it up , but have you seen the time in Blighty?:D :D

    Perry
     
  4. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    They round the top end of Fraser Island and head into Gladstone. There have been some spectacular groundings over the years but not on the Reef. It is further north.

    Rick W.
     
  5. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Tank der lawd.

    Perry
     
  6. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    I think it really depends on the category of boat you are talking about and the conditions. Dennis proved nothing that's relevant to your average cruiser racer.

    I know that in sub 15 knots mono hulls give me a harder time than I care to admit. I'm working on my boat to fix its windward performance but I don't expect to gain huge amounts. Chop in light wind stops me, 15 knots of breeze and its OK, throttle back the chop or amp up the wind and we are flying.

    Just how do you compare them anyway, what is apples with apples? Waterline length, weight, accommodation, sail area... What is a legitimate basis for comparison? Should a 40' mono be compared with a 40' cat? or should it be its equivalent in weight, accommodation, cost?

    LOL my boat wins on cost, I can pass boats that cost 10x to 20x in the right conditions! :D
     
  7. Spiv
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    Spiv Ancient Mariner

    Raw Nerve will beat all of monos but will not beat Orange...
    That' just what I mean, there are cats and cats, the "Cosmos" by Schionnings are not designed to win and will not win races, but will cruise with 30 people and the glasses on the table! Maybe his 'Line Honours' series would do better.

    If you read [SIZE=-1]Charles Kanter's "Cruising Multihulls[/SIZE]", he places cats into 6 well defined categories similarly as to cars, from station wagons to F1.
    You just cannot go bush with a Ferrari!

    Now, if we also categorize monos, then we should see that cats will beat monos of the same class.
     
  8. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    But what is the yardstick to compare categories? That's the thing that will alter everything.
     
  9. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I am sorry for the delay in replying to this thread, but I have been cruising the upper Amazon in a 98ft power trimaran and have only just got back to dry land

    Ever since the days of Arthur Piver (“30 knots possible, goes to windward in a F9”) people have been over emphasising cruising multihull speeds. Ultimately it is counterproductive, as it is so easy to see how badly some multihulls sail. Even so, I was surprised to hear that large Schoonning designs were beaten by smaller monohulls.

    Having said that, there are two things you have to have if you want to beat a similar length monohull. No debate, no discussion.

    1) good sails
    2) daggerboards or centreboards

    Furthermore, just because a boat looks fast doesn’t mean that it is; and don’t believe any comparative performance claims unless they are when racing.

    Surprisingly, if I want to beat a monohull, I’d chose big seas and strong winds, not flat water and light winds. Monohulls reach their hull speed quickly, basically because they are over-canvassed compared to multihulls.

    However, beating good monohulls in a multihull is possible. Last year I raced on a F31 trimaran in round Vancouver race. About 45 boats, 6 were multihulls. We were about the 4th fastest boat. Fastest was Icon, a 60ft ULDB. Second fastest was a F25, which actually beat Icon in a couple of legs. Unfortunately the Farrier designs are not as good cruising boats as most catamarans; they are too wet, too small, and don’t have enough payload.

    A catamaran offers more space and comfort and can be as fast as a Farrier. Before I spent 5 years using my 32ft Eclipse catamaran as a comfortable live aboard cruiser, I raced it extensively in the UK. Eclipse has full standing headroom, even in the saloon, plus six berths, big galley and heads/shower.

    Everyone claims that their boat is faster than the competition, but in Eclipse's case that is no idle boast. Shortly after launching, when the boat was empty and sails new, Eclipse recorded its highest ever speed of 21 knots. In cruising mode Eclipse is naturally slower, but even so GPS recorded speeds of 16 knots or more are still common.

    The UK's Round the Island race is one of the biggest races in the world with typically 1700 starters, including over 50 multihulls. It is a 60 mile race starting and finishing at Cowes in the Solent and boats race right round the Isle of Wight so are certain to sail both to windward and off wind. Furthermore they will be sailed hard in the lumpy overfalls off the Needles and at high speed in flat water through the Solent.

    Eclipse entered the 2002 event held in 15-20 knot winds and was easily the first cruising catamaran to finish. The next production catamaran was a 43ft Belize, which finished over one hour later. Eclipse also beat several F27 and Dragonfly trimarans boat for boat.

    Possibly a greater feat though, was to overtake Mumm30 racing monohulls to windward in the closing stages of the race. Who says multihulls don't go to windward? Boats like the J92 (racing monohulls the same length as Eclipse) were left far behind. The race results are still available on line (google for them)

    You can see much more on Eclipse on my website www.sailingcatamarans.com

    no relation to Bruce!
    Good sailin
    Richard Woods
     
  10. Alan M.
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    Alan M. Senior Member

    Dennis did prove that a hastily thrown together 60 foot cat can beat the fastest match racing monohull in the world, of around double it's size, around a course, in relatively sheltered waters, on all points of sail, and can do so without even needing to use a spinnaker.

    In fact S&S wasn't even sailed to it's full potential, all they did was sail fast enough to cover the Kiwi boat and win.

    So a purpose built racing cat will beat the best racing mono - when it comes to "cruiser racers" it really depends on how much cruiser and how much racer.
     
  11. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Yeah they chucked it together, coupla sticks tied together and cause its got two hulls its superior. LOL. No skew in those statements. I think she was a pretty capable craft, don't you think? Not like they rushed out and got a set of Tornado plans and blew them up eh? 10 months and a bucket load of $$$ can get you a lot & did. BTW New Zealand was 50% longer at 90 feet. Anyway like I said what does it prove?

    In the context of this discussion it proves nothing, we are taking about cruiser racers across various conditions and the fact that more than one hull will not always make you faster. That begs the question what is a fair basis for comparison, length seems to be chosen but is it relevant?

    LOL Dennis had an advantage with 120' of waterline over NZ's 90'... no? :p
     
  12. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Just by way of example the current crop of mono sports boats will give similarly sized cats a very hard time around a course. Its no longer a slam dunk because you have two hulls. A "Sports 8" http://sports8.com.au hits speeds (in given conditions) that I can only dream of in my 24' cat. There is a major mismatch in technology so obviously its not a fair match, but what is fair basis for comparison?
     
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  13. Alan M.
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    Alan M. Senior Member

    Of course S&S was a capable craft. It would have been expertly sailed too. But the fact is, by comparison to most AC campaigns S&S was put together hurriedly. And another fact is, it won more than convincingly. Against arguably the fastest and likely the best-sailed monohull of it's type in the world. I've seen it referred to as possibly the worst mis-match in AC history. It wasn't even a contest.

    In the context of this discussion it does demonstrate that a pure racing multihull can beat a pure racing monohull around a relatively short course in a series of races, in sheltered waters. In terms of "cruiser racers" competing the question is really one of "how much cruiser, and how much racer?" Applied equally to the crews as well as the boats.
     
  14. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    MB,

    "There is a major mismatch in technology so obviously its not a fair match, but what is fair basis for comparison?"

    If suitable, how about installing the identical driving force (rig and suite of sails) onto a latest design catamaran which weighs the same as the Sports 8 hull, with its canting keel. "The Sports 8 has a 95mm section CST carbon mast with carbon boom and carbon pole and uses the same kind of automatic trimming rig that’s proved so successful on Vivace and other Bethwaite designs." http://sports8.com.au/ If the Sport 8 rig etc will not transfer across to the catamaran, the area of the sails must be identical, even if the cut or type are not.

    The Sport 8 is a vinyl ester foam core production hull and the catamaran would probably be epoxy glass/foam core construction with twin dagger boards and Vara type rudders. The catamaran will probably be longer than the Sport 8 and will also require one crew fewer, but that's fair because we are testing two types of thinking and if the catamaran has a stability advantage, it should be exploited.

    Who would I get to design this catamaran? "In the bluecorner, at 49 years of CAT sailing, just back from a jaunt up the mighty Amazon, me lords, ladies an gentulmen, I give you that colossus of catamaran design, RIIICHAARD WOOOOOODDDS."

    "OK lads, clean fight, know wot I mean?"

    Pericles
     

  15. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Whats that got to do with a Northshore 38 kicking a Schionning's *** around a course?
     
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