Some one has to start it, Americas default.

In reply to Dave and Frosty,
Sadly there are too many unscrupulous people, (employers), who would not blink at slavery - so I support a minimum wage to protect the "weak" - ... - from the 'greedy-exploitative-********' ... who, because they could not have their way - exported the jobs offshore to exploit others even more vulnerable... By so doing - effectively screw their own country...

An illustration that could benefit from an expansion of everyone else's ideas:-
... If you bought a new computer recently, regardless of "brand/badge engineering", it was likely built in one of 4 places... ALL IN ASIA... (China, Taiwan, Korea? & Malaysia)...
... In Australia, the domestic vehicle manufacturing is loosing market share to FAR CHEAPER (and in many ways better?), imported cars and $x$ (4x4 monstrosities used as suburban taxies)...


Price is not necessarily the determinant in consumer purchase, for example:-
- Microsoft Windows, Mackintosh or - Have you heard of Linux? very robust, (core is used by most ISP's - The commercial "Red Hat" version, - and also in all Cray supercomputers), - and is FREE for non-commercial-use by 'home-consumers', - Linux will read and write most Windows stuff as well as Mac stuff, being capable of importing and exporting, wherever, as well as its own file systems / operating-system ... I use http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint Linux Mint, so I am somewhat biased...

 

There will always be exploitation mas, we are all exploited in one way or another but the benefits of freedom out weigh restriction.

But as said by Dave its up to the individual to decide if they are being exploited and may be just great full for the opportunity.

Putting laws on it wont stop it anyway. If laws stopped anything we would live in a perfect world. The more laws are made the more are broken.

 

Hi Frosty,
I have to cede to your point...

 

What is the nett private debt in the US ? I understand the total private and public debt is around 50 trillion, surely the debt owed to overseas, private and public, is what saps an economy. A lot of the public debt is owed to Americans, which has to be better than shovelling it out the door to China or Japan. The private debt, I don't know where the debt is owed to. If it is mainly OS, will be a hard road back.

 

Have a look here http://www.usdebtclock.org/

and for statistics as reported pre Clinton here http://www.shadowstats.com/ with unemployment at around 22.5%... Heaven only knows for Australia...

For me the killer worry is CDS's at more than 600 trillion in USA (Credit Default Swap) - something really twisted there...

 

I dont understand, banks are being told to lend more to customers and interest rates are on the floor in most countries and was'nt it cheap money and debt that got us into this in the first place. The world has too much money, we need deflation and loss of jobs we need shocking out of our comfortable credit card existance.

Its time for some exploitation and be thank full to be so.

Its time for bread and dripping, shoe repairs and walking to work like life was in the 30's.

Printing more money is not the answer, there is already too much money.

Respect is what required, respect it and confidence will follow.

Bank of New york is now charging for cash deposits, Thats to deter the rich from dumping large amounts from the stock market, and you say don't tax the rich. Theve more money than they know what to do with.

Respect? I mean million dollar bonuses , and 15 million for knocking a golf ball, or 10 million to make a movie then asking the man in the street to pay 15 dollars to buy a CD of it.

 

Spending other people's money seems to be the problem. The buggers want it back, plus that damned interest !

 

I think you'd be surprised at what exactly I think we should do with this gubment but in the interim cutting the wages of people already on food stamps is simply ridiculous, What aught to be illegal is the corporate oligarchy and the huge multinationals who have bled the country dry.

 

Here, Frosty, is the answer - - (well part of the answer you seek.)... http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/too-much-good-thing

 

No one is suggesting cutting wages just a free market of employment.

If you force people to be paid more than they are worth who is exploiting who, then no one will want to employ anyone.

You can get another job if you don't like it and at that stage if you are worth more you will be paid more.

In Aussie stupid Unions exploit employers and close businesses down increasing unemployment, and the social security bill . They have this strange notion that all employees should have a Jaguar and 8 weeks paid holiday like the boss has who mortgaged his family 25 years ago and worked night and day to develop the business.
That small point seems to go un noticed.

 

You obviously haven't worked in Australia Frosty. I've got 2 Jaguars and get 16 weeks holiday.

Maybe other countries should adopt this. The more people have to spend the more they spend keeping the economy going.

That is why China is booming they realise that, and have built a middle class of people buying up fashion, computers etc.

 

Masalai, industry went offshore not only for allegedly cheaper labor, but mainly because punitive double taxation drove them there. In order to stay viable(out of reach of hostile tax policy) they had to go.

 

And let us not forget about unfair practices by organized labor(work slow downs, etc).

http://reason.com/blog/2011/02/23/whitewashing-the-history-of-or

 

i agree poida, we have terrific conditions here but we also work more hours per year than most country's. i have never had anything to with unions so i think frosty must get his facts reading about the water front workers troubles that made the head lines a few years ago. .

 

Companies like Walmart and Target offer lots of great stuff that poor people can buy cheap because they keep their costs down. When they have job openings, people line up around the block to apply for the job. Don't you think those people lining up around the block to get the job are in a better position to decide if the job is good for them than you are?

What always makes me crazy in these discussions is people talking about an employer as if he's a bad guy for offering low wages. In a free economy, that makes no sense at all. If anyone wants to work for those wages, then by definition the person who wants the job at those wages thinks that he is better off with the job than without. Yes, it's true that he would be even better off with bigger pay, but that job with bigger pay is not available to him. What is available is what the employer has to offer.

You guys seem to think that the employer just has a job to offer, period, and the pay is random. That's not how the world works. The employer is a person who is also trying to make money, just like the employee. The employer has some idea of: "I can sell X product and make P profit. If I hire someone for W wages I can sell X2 product and make P2-W profits. If P2-W is not enough bigger than P to justify the hassle of hiring someone then the employer just won't hire them. A minimum wage does not change that equation; all it does is eliminate jobs where the W that the employer would be willing to spend is less than the minimum wage.

There are lots of people out there who would love to have pay that you don't think is "survivable". Who do you think you are deciding for other people what pay they have a right to accept?

I managed to survive for years at 1/2 of what was then considered a "survivable wage" (grad-school students are not considered real people so normal minimum wage laws do not apply). I was single, which helped, and I drove a used motorcycle instead of a car. I wore old jeans and flannel shirts so I could afford good hiking boots and a leather jacket for my bike. For vacations I would go hiking in the mountains or just ride my motorcycle to somewhere that I knew people who would put me up for a few days. When I ate out it was cheap hamburgers or pizza. I shared a small, ratty apartment with another guy. Had to use duct tape on the cracks in the walls to keep the crickets out (the crickets ate right through the masking tape that I tried first). My roommate bought a couch for $5 and I got an old recliner and a mattress and box springs free from my parents. No bed frame, but when you're young that extra 8 inches getting out of bed is no big deal. I never once felt oppressed or victimized. I lived on what I had and life was great.

The point is that you should let people make their own economic decisions rather than trying to artificially enforce certain standards of what you would consider acceptable. Those sorts of laws always distort the economy in ways that is bad for everyone except for the few lottery winners who benefit from the laws.