Some ideas

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by yipster, Jan 11, 2003.

  1. Doug Carlson
    Joined: Feb 2003
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    Doug Carlson Senior Member

    Yipster,

    In the Boat Design section of this forum, there was a recent discussion of Hickman sleds, inverted "V"s, etc. "Trouty" posted a reference to a "Bream" fishing forum. If you go there, "badge68", the Inverted V guy from this forum, has some comments.

    This is a quote from one of his posts:

    "the whole concept of the IVB is getting airrated water next to the hull to reduce skin friction..
    there is about 1/2" layer of white water air/water mix coming out from the transom when under way at speed.
    the hull currently requires at least 20% less HP to drive for a similar length mono hull (even with larger wetted hull surface)"


    Seems relevant to our discussion also.

    Doug Carlson
     
  2. Doug Carlson
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    Doug Carlson Senior Member

    Dimpled surfaces

    Yipster,

    The car with a dimpled bottom is a Lexus sedan.

    Doug Carlson
     
  3. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    yipster designer

    nice car also! started wondering why some stuff fascinates me so much while it barely has daily practical use for me, seems you got the same disorder? in a earlyer posting "formdrag", i recall mentioning that golfball allready and yesterday on tely i hear: "the dimples in a golfball make for a smaller wake couse the boundery layer sticks better and further afterwards witch also improves a straighter trajectory. so a dimpled golfball fly's twice as far as a smooth one!" impressive! ok, thats a golfball and a boat isnt a ball nor does it fly (actually some do) for the lexus carbottom however it seems to work as well. offcourse one could say its harder to clean etc. but i find it interesting...

    reading on Lippisch i came acros some info on supersonic surface flow, wonder if a mach nr. can somehow be compared with a froude nr.?
    crazyest of all may be some of these designs used coaldust for fuel :eek:
     

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  4. Doug Carlson
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    Doug Carlson Senior Member

    Speedo

    Yipster,

    Speedo the swimsuit manufacturer just announced their latest supersuit for the Olympics. As before it mimics sharkskin. Apparantly it has "rivlets", (corrugations, I think) of differing configurations to increase and decrease resistance in areas of high and low pressure that result when the inconvenient protuberances that human beings exhibit are dragged through a fluid.

    Doug Carslon
     
  5. yipster
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    yipster designer

    Doug,
    yes i wear speedo day and night and have seen special surface suits for biking and skating, for swimming its new to me and makes sence allrite. guess we wont swim twice as fast in it? maybe when exhaling air trough cavitating hotspots in the suit witch probably isnt all that easy or within the rules. the caltech article on super cavitation came online again, now thats real speedo and i saw you drew up some real smooth lines in Pro/E, well done! I recently got exited over H2O; split its clean powerfull energy (like all the world allready knew i found) still it occurred strange to me ships and boats only sail, not use that possible potential. i planed a visit to an open day from a local high flux research reactor and intend to learn more about neutrino's, the real original and in H missing neutron, but financially i only qualify rite now for olympic barrel rowing.
     
  6. yipster
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    yipster designer

    Doug, little late but thanks for the 3d -and a ½- plotter explanation, only have a hand held router I seldom use and although fascinated by cad cam the most I ever did was plug in my girlfriends knitting computer.

    Know what you did mentioning "laminar flow", I haven’t slept since. Only now http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/boundlay.html I fully realize in wsa drag the touching liquid layer actually stands still.
    [​IMG]
    This site has lots of interesting info http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/freesoftware_page.htm Saw on telly some perforated planes suck hotspot flows away where boats may perhaps ventilate air. Here some more info on wsa super cavitating 500km hr torpedos: http://www.diodon349.com/Torpedoman/TM_Stuff/shkval_torpedo_links.htm I’m a pacifist but hell; I sure am fascinated by technology.

    Glow discharge plasma for example [​IMG] http://jlnlabs.imars.com/plasma/html/s_gdpthr1.htm
    I also saw at [​IMG] http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/ltrs/PDF/1998/aiaa/NASA-aiaa-98-0328.pdf

    Keeping things simple I found that boiling water not necessarily happens at 100c. Boiling requires seed steam bubbles, boiling water without bubbles can superheat above boiling point. In a magnetron superheated water can be dangerous, a tap on the container initiates violent or even explosive boiling. Why do the gasses H and O form a liquid, why does ice float on water plus a explanation how the water molecule and its electron configuration looks and more at: http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/supplements/water_steam_and_ice.pdf Aint no chemist -but can electrolyse- and when i hear Hydrogen (2 or 3 times more potential than regular) is now 3 times the price of conventional gas i'm sure the difference must be in storage, transport and tax. Oxygen and hydrogen atoms combined explode/burn at a high thermal 3000 c and form really pure water again. Hydrogen with air (instead of O) burns fair but does not turn to clean water again as we are made to believe at forexample http://www.ecotecture.com/library_eco/energy/hydrogen1b.html Still H or water probably is our near future fuel as fusion isn’t really ready yet. Looks like I found a similar electolyses idea in fuel cell wings at http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/AERO/base/rac.htm but cant figger out what its for, is that an integrated distributed propulsion / power plasma drive or a surface drag reduction shield like mentiont above? Nasa is using the words hydrogen and oxygen more than I but boaters floating on water have a big advantage in this technology. Boats and ships as I see it don't need to store and liquefy H (deepfreeze to -253c) Boats should find way’s to get H and O out of the water we float in economically and use it immediately for propulsion simultaneously producing the fuel. Ok, we might need generator assistance but tricks like Kelvin’s thunderstorm for example can chance waters electron config and may make the electrolysis much easier, also http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/article.htm and http://www.powerlabs.org/waterarc.htm gives plenty of thoughts on H and O production and consumption without the need starting a biological H algae farm. Long time ago farmers use to make natural gas and I guess on this sunny day I’m wasting time; Chrysler Mercedes and other conglomerates probably already have everything patented and I now recall a movie where an alien government came to earth stealing our water. Guess that’s more real than my steam engine thoughts. But yes, who else is as crazy, I am dreaming up some sort of pop-pop boat [​IMG] steam propulsion http://www.delphion.com/details?pn10=US06484491 perhaps pulsing or shock waving as http://www.pursuitdynamics.com/Marine.asp calls it. (water shows the shockwave but how about the bang?)

    Summer is here, my wheels need work, maybe not directly boating but how can my good diesel bus get smooth in the exhaust and is turned down on the annual test? It isn’t using a drop of oil so what is coursing that sooth? "that’s going to be expensive, can be injectors, can be pressure pump, can be anything” is all I get. Boats don’t get that test yearly and may develop the same problem I assume? Is here a diesel expert with some more wisdom in the room that can explain, or is it too complicated and one better buy’s new?

    The sundancer wants to the water but needs a duo prop, anti fouling, close the hot water boiler valve, diesel for heater can be later but its work and money. Looking at the half build swath trike here I want to try out I realize it wont be very fast and may cavitate the wrong way but I still believe in it, other features might just work amazingly well, got to do it but must admit I’m behind schedule.

    I've got planty to do and have a –way to much- inquiring mind, wish I were rich and not so pretty.

    PDF on hydrogen combustion :
    http://www.ott.doe.gov/otu/field_ops/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf
    more links on request :cool:
     
  7. yipster
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    yipster designer

    o yes, i got mail from concept boat, their new competition is open till 30 june 2004 for entries that are a new design of recreational or commercial craft of up to 24m length, primarily focussing on their use in the environment.

    i send a boat drawing that incorporates above :D

    see 2003 concept boats and their discribtion plus this years info at www.conceptboat.com
     
  8. yipster
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    yipster designer

    two glass coffeecups stacked and...

    Evidence Bubbles Over To Support Tabletop Nuclear Fusion Device on "super" cavitation.


    (with thanks to Mark from the http://www.pulse-jets.com/ forum)

     
  9. yipster
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    yipster designer

    So cavitation at your prop, the stereo loud and you might just be creating a fusion reaction at the stern without even knowing or using it

    Buying fuel -here now E 1.30 a liter- for the purring efi merc’s may be a good thing cause I only made some small inexpensive pop-pop propulsion tubes just on butane gas heat. They work and I love the simplicity. Found this PDX cut trough drawing
    [​IMG] at http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993321

    Fueling my small pop pop steam jet with split water H2+O I didn’t try/dare yet. Did not calculate cost electrolyzing, haven’t even called our local gas depot but saw a 55 cent price (plus insurance) on H2O2 hydrogen peroxide at: http://www.tecaeromex.com/ingles/indexi.html

    Offcourse all this may sound like Clarabelle Cow “if it wasn’t for Thomas Edison we’ll be watching TV by candlelight now” so making it easy I got new temp regulated computerized fuel injected lambda wheels. Were ever did I read that the internal combustion piston engine is a overdeveloped poor design? Little choice these day’s I guess?
     
  10. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

  11. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    who can explain a little what cavitation numbers are based on as mentioned in the caltech paper on supercavitation at http://www.curj.caltech.edu/archives/vol1/1004005.pdf and what free or lowcost software is there that gives insight in only computer fluid dynamics and potential multi flows?

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2821&highlight=cfd has good info on ship resistance but for a while now i wonder about propulsion like above. is it really so a waterjetdrive only work well having the waterjet just above the waterline?

    from >4000 C burning H and O forms superheated steam, now how much more water wil that vaporise (water to steam is 30 times if i recall rite?) below that waterline, what was the name of those fantastic keramic spaceshuttle tiles again you can touch bare handed while heated above temperatures mentioned here, planty of real hard questions for just a hobbyist i know...
     
  12. yipster
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    yipster designer

    [​IMG]
    imagine such a jet on water power, no need for a tank making hydrogen and oxigen directly from water, keramic pipes simplicity and underwater i guess the noise problem is solved. read more on the future jet at http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviation/article/0,12543,473272-1,00.html
    on a boat such a jet would fit best but doubt mercury, volvo or others will beat GE and pratt and whitney in R&D, in time however it looks like these will be our new engine's...
     
  13. Tom Taylor

    Tom Taylor Guest

    NE Port

    Yipster,

    Keep up the good work! Your design work has inspired me. I've made some drawings (mere scribblings) of dreamcraft that are radical. I have no formal technical training and only design by feel (the seat of my pants). I look forward to building/owning one of your vehicles someday.

    The submersion of the outboard/engine is something I've encountered in some of my designs. My thoughts on a solution to change direction,are: a) encase the engine in a watertight chamber that swivels, b) make the engine stationary and use a rudder system behind the propeller or jet or, c) encase the entire propulsion system in a watertight, underwater module with air venting from the surface of the craft.

    The combination of hydrofoil, WIG, and hovercraft technologies is most interesting.

    Best Regards,
    NE Port
     
  14. yipster
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    yipster designer

    Tom, sorry for the late reply and thanks for the compliment! thats how i also consider designs; as if i would like to have them for myself...

    on the watertrike wich was intended as "lowcost" test-out model i am looking into a "propulsion system in a watertight, underwater module with air venting from the surface" the 3 legs are made and need the horizontal aluminum triangle, its slow progres though. anybody quiker can take a shot at it, i too like to see those swat ideas tested!

    surface effect ships are certainly interesting but i realise its hard to beat a regular setup that also eats money and i wont give up on. so how many waterbikes or swath's you want? just joking, i'm happy, keep drawing and do show the seats of your pants also! :D
     

  15. Larry Gudde

    Larry Gudde Guest

    Onwer Goodproducts

    {TICKYBOO} I like the inderwater layout, and would like to build one,. But need some kind of a plan. I have a complete machine shop and am a master tool maker.
     
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